Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Jolle
Jolle
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Bill wrote:
08 Jul 2020, 12:24
That's great & helpful.problem with Fia and Ferrari is that Ferrari is still getting preferential treatment they are effectively helping Fia monitor other 3 power units manufacturers and that's make Toto very angry,Ferrari are a player and a referee.
I don’t think that is way the FIA stated... I read the statement in a way that they explained to the FIA what they did and how to spot it on other engines and/or rewrite the rules in such a way that no one could take this advantage anymore.

Not that they are part of the tech team in any way.

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Pyrone89
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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The CEO of Ferrari (Elkann) and Team Principal (Binotto) who were quick to say Verstappen was talking BS are awfully quietly lately. Anyone seen any comments from them lately on the subject?

Lol, got -1 for being confrontational. You do realise this is a forum? Not a mandated PC-safe space right?

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Last edited by Pyrone89 on 10 Jul 2020, 00:04, edited 2 times in total.
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LM10
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Pyrone89 wrote:
08 Jul 2020, 22:12
The CEO of Ferrari (Elkann) and Team Principal (Binotto) who were quick to say Verstappen was talking BS are awfully quietly lately. Anyone seen any comments from them lately on the subject?
What do you expect them to do? Go to Verstappen and beg for mercy? I don't think they care much about him (rightly so). There are fairly more important things to do for them now.

You posted in the wrong thread, btw.

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Pyrone89
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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LM10 wrote:
08 Jul 2020, 22:23
Pyrone89 wrote:
08 Jul 2020, 22:12
The CEO of Ferrari (Elkann) and Team Principal (Binotto) who were quick to say Verstappen was talking BS are awfully quietly lately. Anyone seen any comments from them lately on the subject?
What do you expect them to do? Go to Verstappen and beg for mercy? I don't think they care much about him (rightly so). There are fairly more important things to do for them now.

You posted in the wrong thread, btw.
An excuse would be welcome.
Nope, right thread. Because the comments and saga was about the engine.
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LM10
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Pyrone89 wrote:
08 Jul 2020, 22:48
LM10 wrote:
08 Jul 2020, 22:23
Pyrone89 wrote:
08 Jul 2020, 22:12
The CEO of Ferrari (Elkann) and Team Principal (Binotto) who were quick to say Verstappen was talking BS are awfully quietly lately. Anyone seen any comments from them lately on the subject?
What do you expect them to do? Go to Verstappen and beg for mercy? I don't think they care much about him (rightly so). There are fairly more important things to do for them now.

You posted in the wrong thread, btw.
An excuse would be welcome.
Nope, right thread. Because the comments and saga was about the engine.
Excuse for what? I'm sure he was not the only one thinking Ferrari might have been up to something. But he was the only one having a big enough mouth to tell it publicly.
The thing is that I'm almost sure that Honda has also been up to some not so clean stuff. It's interesting, to tell the least, that the heavily praised RBR 2020 car, the number 1 Mercedes contender, was slower than in 2019 after all.

As you can see, it's going even more off-topic. Wrong thread because it's not directly Ferrari PU stuff.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I think their combustion chambers were optimized for some sort of oil burning or some injestion of Ozone or something to that effect. Definitely unconventional stuff.

Their engine had the biggest bump in power from 2014 to 2015. They were crap in 2014 and then all of a sudden they were challenging Mercedes for wins in rear wheel traction limited tracks in 2015. The TJI and "double anchor" was the explaination.

In 2016 they were tame.. No wins. But in 2017 again their engine was matching Mercedes. Their rapid rate of improvment was astonishing compared to Renault and Honda. In 2018 and 2019 especially they had surpassed Mercedes in raw power. People were saying 3D printed steel pistons.. But there is no evidence of this. Keep in mind detonation is big issue in these engines. Aluminum would be safer bet.

It is hard to say how they acheived that rapid power improvement compared to Renault and Honda. Of course it is their secret. But we can sorta infer that it is not because of mastery of efficient combustion. If they were masters of efficient combustion they wouldn't have suffered this much after the new rulings. Ferrari has managed to squeeze more power out definitely from introducing additional materials or modification to combustion as we know it.

Race pace suggest that their ERS system is of good a grade as any other. They have no lack of battery energy. I can safely say they have mastered "extra havest" a long time ago. I have a theory i put forward on "extra deploy - auxiliaries loop hole" in the honda thread but it wasnt agreed upon by others. Anyways. Ferrari does have extra harvest at least. So I am gonna rule out ERS weaknesses.
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Jolle
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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They might have been double hit by their FF trickery. While their power was up, Honda and Mercedes put their R&D in overdrive to match Ferrari. Now that their trick is gone.. they are even further behind.

Just thinking out loud, if there was anything very dodgy (which it seems to), probably from the racing team only the engine techs and senior staf knew about it (to contain it with the moving staff). When did James Allison change teams?

Edit, I looked it up. He left during 2016, a bad year for Ferrari. Looks like his successor pressed the magic button

Edit 2: the jump in engine power came with the new direction of Binotto. Could just be a coincidence or it runs quite deep...

Alexf1
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Jolle wrote:
09 Jul 2020, 01:47
They might have been double hit by their FF trickery. While their power was up, Honda and Mercedes put their R&D in overdrive to match Ferrari. Now that their trick is gone.. they are even further behind.

Just thinking out loud, if there was anything very dodgy (which it seems to), probably from the racing team only the engine techs and senior staf knew about it (to contain it with the moving staff). When did James Allison change teams?

Edit, I looked it up. He left during 2016, a bad year for Ferrari. Looks like his successor pressed the magic button

Edit 2: the jump in engine power came with the new direction of Binotto. Could just be a coincidence or it runs quite deep...
Maybe Ferrari surrendering to the dark side made Lorenzo Sassi jump ship mid 2017.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Maybe they jumped to the dark side because their engine guys ran out of talent. lol
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hape
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Well we don’t know what they did exactly but some sort of voodoo power was in the engine that has gone now. I’m not going into the debate of legal or illegal voodoo.
But now their engine is tame and has probably the lowest output of any of the 4 engine manufacturers.

Could this be because they designed the engine for the high peak output of last year and now, without voodoo, it’s construction is heavier than necessary, things are oversized, simply not well designed for running without voodoo?
I can’t believe Ferrari are not able to do better than this, their voodoo being forbidden might have left them unable to build an engine optimized for this year. Or Shell with their fuel. Or both?
Furthermore, if we think back of Monza last year where Leclerc was being pushed by Hamilton and Bottas all race long, unable to overtake him out of the tow..... lap after lap the engine had its voodoo....how on earth did Ferrari manage to do that race with 110kg of fuel where now they are still able to burn 110kg of fuel in a race but without the magic power ?

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jumpingfish
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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It’s still not clear to me why not only Ferrari lost power, but their customers too? Does it mean that the engines for Alfa Romeo and Haas were illegal too? How is it possible that Ferrari deliberately and openly supplied illegal engines to two customers? Really the mechanics and engineers of their clients could not notice something strange / illegal?
And why in 2019 no one ever said that he had discovered abnormal accelerations of Alfa Romeo or Haas cars? After all, all the time it was believed that only the Ferrari motor was much more powerful, and the customers were on a par with the rest.

ENGINE TUNER
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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hape wrote:
10 Jul 2020, 20:19
Well we don’t know what they did exactly but some sort of voodoo power was in the engine that has gone now. I’m not going into the debate of legal or illegal voodoo.
But now their engine is tame and has probably the lowest output of any of the 4 engine manufacturers.

Could this be because they designed the engine for the high peak output of last year and now, without voodoo, it’s construction is heavier than necessary, things are oversized, simply not well designed for running without voodoo?
I can’t believe Ferrari are not able to do better than this, their voodoo being forbidden might have left them unable to build an engine optimized for this year. Or Shell with their fuel. Or both?
Furthermore, if we think back of Monza last year where Leclerc was being pushed by Hamilton and Bottas all race long, unable to overtake him out of the tow..... lap after lap the engine had its voodoo....how on earth did Ferrari manage to do that race with 110kg of fuel where now they are still able to burn 110kg of fuel in a race but without the magic power ?
In this fuel limited formula fuel usage is basically a function of time on throttle, so before they were using more fuel(probably more than the regs allowed) for a shorter amount of time(it took them less time to get down the straight), rather than less fuel for a longer amount of time. Furthermore, Ferrari were regularly using around 15kg more fuel than any of the other engines per race, which should have been a red flag to the regulators in of itself.

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subcritical71
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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jumpingfish wrote:
10 Jul 2020, 21:25
It’s still not clear to me why not only Ferrari lost power, but their customers too? Does it mean that the engines for Alfa Romeo and Haas were illegal too? How is it possible that Ferrari deliberately and openly supplied illegal engines to two customers? Really the mechanics and engineers of their clients could not notice something strange / illegal?
And why in 2019 no one ever said that he had discovered abnormal accelerations of Alfa Romeo or Haas cars? After all, all the time it was believed that only the Ferrari motor was much more powerful, and the customers were on a par with the rest.
I don't think the other teams engineers would be poking around the PU too much, they would (should) be more worried about their area of expertise. And anything that Ferrari could have been doing and the FIA wasn't able to figure it out after their investigation means that by just looking at it will not be obvious. Ferrari will have their engineers handling the engines. My understanding is they even wear the Haas and Alfa uniforms. Now, was Ferrari forthcoming about any and all engine modes as earlier rules/TDs specified must be supplied to all teams(?)

NL_Fer
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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If all the other focus on 100kg/h for the highest power mode and Maranello focuses on 101kg/h.

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MtthsMlw
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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jumpingfish wrote:
10 Jul 2020, 21:25
It’s still not clear to me why not only Ferrari lost power, but their customers too? Does it mean that the engines for Alfa Romeo and Haas were illegal too? How is it possible that Ferrari deliberately and openly supplied illegal engines to two customers? Really the mechanics and engineers of their clients could not notice something strange / illegal?
And why in 2019 no one ever said that he had discovered abnormal accelerations of Alfa Romeo or Haas cars? After all, all the time it was believed that only the Ferrari motor was much more powerful, and the customers were on a par with the rest.
I think this was exaggerated by the SF90's low drag design. Also the Ferrari PU might not have only lost the fuel trick.
I'd imagine a scenario where they had to make big changes to the PU in a short amount of time to ensure it fully satisfies the FIA's new stricter controls - also with regards to the ERS parts - leaving them with a half baked product delivering even less power (in Quali) than before all "trickery".
Just my two cents though.