2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

[dren]

So where would Vandoorne be going?

Haas?

I'm curious myself if Haas drop Grossjean. I would, but I'm not so certain it will happen.

[Hammerfist]

He's (techman) trying to control the conversations on these threads. He completely ignores topics that doesn't push his agenda. It's always an , "I think..." conversation with him.

In reality he's just stating the truth. Thinking you're just one or two quick fixes away from completely turning the situation around and showing the cars great potential is a bit naive. You've got an armchair aero guy claiming the cars performance is very good minus 2 aero details. Maybe he needs to be reminded the car is being lapped atm.

Techman and other critics probably ignore a lot of convo because in the big picture they feel it is irrelevant. I think at this point it's becoming clear, major changes are needed to turn this situation. The small talk is over.

Yes. Unless there is a major overhaul of Mclaren staff I dont see them ever improving significantly enough. They are spinning their wheels and going nowhere atm.

[ALO_Power]

True, all of those Ricciardo, Raikkonen rumors show that McLaren doesn't have faith to Vandoorne, or in having 2 "young" drivers. Of course they indicate that probably Alonso will go but they could still have Vandoorne and Norris but it turns out they want 1 experienced and 1 rookie.

[godlameroso]

He's (techman) trying to control the conversations on these threads. He completely ignores topics that doesn't push his agenda. It's always an , "I think..." conversation with him.

In reality he's just stating the truth. Thinking you're just one or two quick fixes away from completely turning the situation around and showing the cars great potential is a bit naive. You've got an armchair aero guy claiming the cars performance is very good minus 2 aero details. Maybe he needs to be reminded the car is being lapped atm.

Techman and other critics probably ignore a lot of convo because in the big picture they feel it is irrelevant. I think at this point it's becoming clear, major changes are needed to turn this situation. The small talk is over.

I'm aware of where the car is at the moment. Where do you suppose they could make a big gain? You say major changes are needed, where would you start for the sake of discussion? Assume the budget is not an issue, again just for discussion's sake. Let's drop the small talk and be frank.

I think it's definitely an aero issue, and Zak Brown has admitted as much, and I don't think anyone denies this area I'm talking about is extremely important to overall aero performance. No I can't give you specific numbers, I don't have that data, but I have seen this problem before. No I'm not an F1 aerodynamicist I'm a validations engineer, but the title is irrelevant only the facts matter. This area brings tons of performance, period, no sentiments involved, just facts. Can I quantify it, no, is it really just slapping parts on and it'll work? Clearly not, but you can't deny that this area needs to change if they're going to make gains on the competition.

Again, let's avoid small talk and dive into the matter at hand, obviously it's my opinion, however I try to ground it on facts. Maybe you're right and there's more to it than just focusing on this area, but you cannot deny that since 2017, the teams that have worked on this area have continuously found chunks of time. And none of the fast cars have anything resembling what the McLaren is doing in this area.

As for judging the staff at McLaren, it really isn't fair to them, we don't really know what's going on internally, the situation is not as straight forward as you think. This is why I don't speak about it, it's not something that can easily be seen, the cloud of politics is strong but that's only natural given the environmental circumstances.

Finally I don't recall saying it was an easy fix, maybe they have to redesign the tub in order to make the changes needed to take that step forward.

[Big Tea]

He's (techman) trying to control the conversations on these threads. He completely ignores topics that doesn't push his agenda. It's always an , "I think..." conversation with him.

In reality he's just stating the truth. Thinking you're just one or two quick fixes away from completely turning the situation around and showing the cars great potential is a bit naive. You've got an armchair aero guy claiming the cars performance is very good minus 2 aero details. Maybe he needs to be reminded the car is being lapped atm.

Techman and other critics probably ignore a lot of convo because in the big picture they feel it is irrelevant. I think at this point it's becoming clear, major changes are needed to turn this situation. The small talk is over.

I'm aware of where the car is at the moment. Where do you suppose they could make a big gain? You say major changes are needed, where would you start for the sake of discussion? Assume the budget is not an issue, again just for discussion's sake. Let's drop the small talk and be frank.

I think it's definitely an aero issue, and Zak Brown has admitted as much, and I don't think anyone denies this area I'm talking about is extremely important to overall aero performance. No I can't give you specific numbers, I don't have that data, but I have seen this problem before. No I'm not an F1 aerodynamicist I'm a validations engineer, but the title is irrelevant only the facts matter. This area brings tons of performance, period, no sentiments involved, just facts. Can I quantify it, no, is it really just slapping parts on and it'll work? Clearly not, but you can't deny that this area needs to change if they're going to make gains on the competition.

Again, let's avoid small talk and dive into the matter at hand, obviously it's my opinion, however I try to ground it on facts. Maybe you're right and there's more to it than just focusing on this area, but you cannot deny that since 2017, the teams that have worked on this area have continuously found chunks of time. And none of the fast cars have anything resembling what the McLaren is doing in this area.

As for judging the staff at McLaren, it really isn't fair to them, we don't really know what's going on internally, the situation is not as straight forward as you think. This is why I don't speak about it, it's not something that can easily be seen, the cloud of politics is strong but that's only natural given the environmental circumstances.

Does it really matter what the issue is? (from a team point of view, not disputing your wisdom here, please don't think I am 'doing you down' as I really do not have a clue on it )

The real issue is that either there is no one there that can pinpoint the problem and get it sorted, or someone there knows what the problem is but can get nothing done about it.

If there is no one there who knows or can find out what the problem is, this is the problem.
If people know what the problem is, this splits again into 2 problems.

1 Is there no one who Can fix it
2 Are they being allowed to fix it.

Which ever it is seems to be a higher management problem. Someone is in a position to say 'you, do this' or 'find some one who can do this.

It still smacks of higher echelon politics to me.

[godlameroso]

In reality he's just stating the truth. Thinking you're just one or two quick fixes away from completely turning the situation around and showing the cars great potential is a bit naive. You've got an armchair aero guy claiming the cars performance is very good minus 2 aero details. Maybe he needs to be reminded the car is being lapped atm.

Techman and other critics probably ignore a lot of convo because in the big picture they feel it is irrelevant. I think at this point it's becoming clear, major changes are needed to turn this situation. The small talk is over.

I'm aware of where the car is at the moment. Where do you suppose they could make a big gain? You say major changes are needed, where would you start for the sake of discussion? Assume the budget is not an issue, again just for discussion's sake. Let's drop the small talk and be frank.

I think it's definitely an aero issue, and Zak Brown has admitted as much, and I don't think anyone denies this area I'm talking about is extremely important to overall aero performance. No I can't give you specific numbers, I don't have that data, but I have seen this problem before. No I'm not an F1 aerodynamicist I'm a validations engineer, but the title is irrelevant only the facts matter. This area brings tons of performance, period, no sentiments involved, just facts. Can I quantify it, no, is it really just slapping parts on and it'll work? Clearly not, but you can't deny that this area needs to change if they're going to make gains on the competition.

Again, let's avoid small talk and dive into the matter at hand, obviously it's my opinion, however I try to ground it on facts. Maybe you're right and there's more to it than just focusing on this area, but you cannot deny that since 2017, the teams that have worked on this area have continuously found chunks of time. And none of the fast cars have anything resembling what the McLaren is doing in this area.

As for judging the staff at McLaren, it really isn't fair to them, we don't really know what's going on internally, the situation is not as straight forward as you think. This is why I don't speak about it, it's not something that can easily be seen, the cloud of politics is strong but that's only natural given the environmental circumstances.

Does it really matter what the issue is? (from a team point of view, not disputing your wisdom here, please don't think I am 'doing you down' as I really do not have a clue on it )

The real issue is that either there is no one there that can pinpoint the problem and get it sorted, or someone there knows what the problem is but can get nothing done about it.

If there is no one there who knows or can find out what the problem is, this is the problem.
If people know what the problem is, this splits again into 2 problems.

1 Is there no one who Can fix it
2 Are they being allowed to fix it.

Which ever it is seems to be a higher management problem. Someone is in a position to say 'you, do this' or 'find some one who can do this.

It still smacks of higher echelon politics to me.

It could also just as easily be that they know what's wrong, however fixing it is a huge technical endeavor because it essentially means you're building a B spec chassis mid season. It's a huge undertaking, massively expensive and intensive technical challenge. Therefore it's not just pressure to perform on track but the staff is also pushed to the brink by shareholders and management because of what's at stake. It sucks but the only thing we can do is wait and endure the frustration, but I'm sure when they do what they need to do the car will come good.

You can't avoid politics when humans are involved.

[dren]

Ferrari last year pushed their side pod intakes further back to take advantage of the space in front of them to develop. Red Bull went down a similar path this year. Mercedes is heading that way now. Sauber and Haas have done well with it, too. Williams has made a mess of it. The Mclaren looks like an under developed Renault in the same area.

[godlameroso]

Ferrari last year pushed their side pod intakes further back to take advantage of the space in front of them to develop. Red Bull went down a similar path this year. Mercedes is heading that way now. Sauber and Haas have done well with it, too. Williams has made a mess of it. The Mclaren looks like an under developed Renault in the same area.

That area is also important because it channels airflow downstream over the floor of the car and around the sidepods. Increasing the mass of airflow going to the back of the car increases the pressure differential back there.

[BJHF1]

He's (techman) trying to control the conversations on these threads. He completely ignores topics that doesn't push his agenda. It's always an , "I think..." conversation with him.

In reality he's just stating the truth. Thinking you're just one or two quick fixes away from completely turning the situation around and showing the cars great potential is a bit naive. You've got an armchair aero guy claiming the cars performance is very good minus 2 aero details. Maybe he needs to be reminded the car is being lapped atm.

Techman and other critics probably ignore a lot of convo because in the big picture they feel it is irrelevant. I think at this point it's becoming clear, major changes are needed to turn this situation. The small talk is over.

I'm aware of where the car is at the moment. Where do you suppose they could make a big gain? You say major changes are needed, where would you start for the sake of discussion? Assume the budget is not an issue, again just for discussion's sake. Let's drop the small talk and be frank.

I think it's definitely an aero issue, and Zak Brown has admitted as much, and I don't think anyone denies this area I'm talking about is extremely important to overall aero performance. No I can't give you specific numbers, I don't have that data, but I have seen this problem before. No I'm not an F1 aerodynamicist I'm a validations engineer, but the title is irrelevant only the facts matter. This area brings tons of performance, period, no sentiments involved, just facts. Can I quantify it, no, is it really just slapping parts on and it'll work? Clearly not, but you can't deny that this area needs to change if they're going to make gains on the competition.

Again, let's avoid small talk and dive into the matter at hand, obviously it's my opinion, however I try to ground it on facts. Maybe you're right and there's more to it than just focusing on this area, but you cannot deny that since 2017, the teams that have worked on this area have continuously found chunks of time. And none of the fast cars have anything resembling what the McLaren is doing in this area.

As for judging the staff at McLaren, it really isn't fair to them, we don't really know what's going on internally, the situation is not as straight forward as you think. This is why I don't speak about it, it's not something that can easily be seen, the cloud of politics is strong but that's only natural given the environmental circumstances.

Finally I don't recall saying it was an easy fix, maybe they have to redesign the tub in order to make the changes needed to take that step forward.

I respect your engineering opinion. But I think it's better to step back and look at the bigger picture - they're getting lapped by the benchmark atm. Thinking they are just one or two aero parts away from showing a very good car is probably a bit far fetched. When you make a car this slow, it is rather obvious there is a fundamental lack of engineering brain power and resources on the whole. Surely they lack in the area you speak of (bargeboard/floor), but I'm sure they lack in other critical areas as well. There is no silver bullet that will bring multiple seconds worth of performance I don't think.

Additionally, I think trying to analyze and rate the potential of the car (as you have) with changes here and there is probably a bit overreaching, especially when you can't put a figure on net gains from supposed changes. It's all a bit of blanket theory when you get down to it.

[godlameroso]

That's fair, it's hard to draw conclusions along these lines because ultimately you never know how the system will behave as a whole. It could be a few tenths it could be the better part of a second, and even then they'd still be behind because the gap is over a second per lap.

[dren]

Ferrari last year pushed their side pod intakes further back to take advantage of the space in front of them to develop. Red Bull went down a similar path this year. Mercedes is heading that way now. Sauber and Haas have done well with it, too. Williams has made a mess of it. The Mclaren looks like an under developed Renault in the same area.

That area is also important because it channels airflow downstream over the floor of the car and around the sidepods. Increasing the mass of airflow going to the back of the car increases the pressure differential back there.

Right, and it's what FI had issues with this year early, around the sides. My guess is it's where Mclaren might be having issues. They retain the VGs to help with air over the top. Don't both use the Toyota tunnel?

[taperoo2k]

Either it's a wind tunnel calibration error that's the thrown the aero off or we have to keep in mind that this is McLaren's first season with a Renault PU and that might have had some knock on effects with the design of the tub or other areas.

In a wider sense it seems like McLaren has got, some significant management issues to sort out, they are in a post Ron Dennis era after all.
He dominated the culture and ethos of the F1 team and wider McLaren group for decades, pushing past that legacy is likely just as tough as trying to get back to the
top of F1.

[PhillipM]

It's around the rear of the sidepods/floor area they've been looking at for the past 3 races, so there's something going off there.
I guess the rest of the updates for sidepods, bargeboards have stalled unless it's parts they're 100% certain of until they can work out what's happening - the last thing you want to do is start throwing a load more VG's upstream and making the system even more chaotic before you understand it.

[RonDennis]

It's around the rear of the sidepods/floor area they've been looking at for the past 3 races, so there's something going off there.
I guess the rest of the updates for sidepods, bargeboards have stalled unless it's parts they're 100% certain of until they can work out what's happening - the last thing you want to do is start throwing a load more VG's upstream and making the system even more chaotic before you understand it.

Correct, it's what Boullier already confirmed. According to Brown they don't expect to have a solution in Austria or Silverstone.

This guy from McLaren also confirmed that the new chassis has changed on several fundamental points.

[media]https://twitter.com/ivanlda/status/1011981634705543168[/media]

[dren]

It's around the rear of the sidepods/floor area they've been looking at for the past 3 races, so there's something going off there.
I guess the rest of the updates for sidepods, bargeboards have stalled unless it's parts they're 100% certain of until they can work out what's happening - the last thing you want to do is start throwing a load more VG's upstream and making the system even more chaotic before you understand it.

Right around where FI was having separation issues.