Ferrari SF23

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
f1316
f1316
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Re: Ferrari SF23

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Vanja #66 wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 17:57
LM10 wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 15:49
So they used low downforce not only at the rear, but also at the front?
Impossible to say, I was just surprised at the smaller planform that's definitely reducing the downforce. Whether the result is medium or low downforce front wing is hard to say, since the geometry is much more complex than rear wing.

What is clear is they are pushing hard for big outwash generation even if the downforce is not maximised. Big centerline load also means two more things - there will always be notable outwash (predictability for downstream aero regardless of planform) and drag reduction due to speed-flex is maximised.

It is actually an overal positive thing for me, I was convinced they were far more limited with downforce gains available at the front than at the back. As it stands, I'd say they have plenty of room to add downforce if needed. Of course, both wings provide less efficient downforce, so any addition will be minimal and carefully evaluated.
This is Gary Anderson, so pinches of salt at the ready, but:
The area where I have put the magenta line is where Ferrari has added a gurney flap. This is a small 90-degree strip that you fit to the trailing edge to increase the performance of the wing in that area. Its presence shows that Ferrari has been struggling to get enough load out of its front wing, especially at low speed which is where a gurney flap will give you more load than just an increase in wing angle.
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Vanja #66
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Re: Ferrari SF23

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f1316 wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 20:51
This is Gary Anderson, so pinches of salt at the ready, but:
The area where I have put the magenta line is where Ferrari has added a gurney flap. This is a small 90-degree strip that you fit to the trailing edge to increase the performance of the wing in that area. Its presence shows that Ferrari has been struggling to get enough load out of its front wing, especially at low speed which is where a gurney flap will give you more load than just an increase in wing angle.
https://storage.googleapis.com/the-rac ... 6x864.jpeg
All clear there, but he doesn't have Henk to let him know about the planform! :D Important thing to note as well, by adding planform surface for high-downforce tracks Ferrari basically won't increase drag if they keep this frontal area.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

dialtone
dialtone
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Joined: 25 Feb 2019, 01:31

Re: Ferrari SF23

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Vanja #66 wrote:
f1316 wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 20:51
This is Gary Anderson, so pinches of salt at the ready, but:
The area where I have put the magenta line is where Ferrari has added a gurney flap. This is a small 90-degree strip that you fit to the trailing edge to increase the performance of the wing in that area. Its presence shows that Ferrari has been struggling to get enough load out of its front wing, especially at low speed which is where a gurney flap will give you more load than just an increase in wing angle.
https://storage.googleapis.com/the-rac ... 6x864.jpeg
All clear there, but he doesn't have Henk to let him know about the planform! :D Important thing to note as well, by adding planform surface for high-downforce tracks Ferrari basically won't increase drag if they keep this frontal area.
As an ignorant: the planform area increase would allow the front wing to move more volume of air even at lower speed thus increasing lift/downforce?

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Vanja #66
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Re: Ferrari SF23

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dialtone wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 22:25
As an ignorant: the planform area increase would allow the front wing to move more volume of air even at lower speed thus increasing lift/downforce?
Force = surface x pressure. Pressure (difference, between top and bottom) is almost the same, surface increase results in downforce increase.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

iHill
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Re: Ferrari SF23

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Henk_v wrote:
Vanja #66 wrote:
28 Feb 2023, 21:00
..., front wing lacks a bit of downforce..
Ferrari has the smallest planform front wing of all '23 cars

(darn, I cant find that 10 cars viewed form above spic)
Which part is the planform?!


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Stu
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Re: Ferrari SF23

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iHill wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 22:44
Henk_v wrote:
Vanja #66 wrote:
28 Feb 2023, 21:00
..., front wing lacks a bit of downforce..
Ferrari has the smallest planform front wing of all '23 cars

(darn, I cant find that 10 cars viewed form above spic)
Which part is the planform?!
Planform is the area of the wing when (virtually) flattened, the wetted area of the wing.
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

DRCorsa
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Re: Ferrari SF23

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Planform is the area of the wing when looking it from above, not the flattened area.

Henk_v
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Joined: 24 Feb 2022, 13:41

Re: Ferrari SF23

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Ferrari has the "highest" frontal view in the MB/RB/SF comparison. Combined with a short span, the angle is incredibly cranked.

With the RB (and others) wing, the front element has a negative angle of attack. They probably stuff more air beneath the wing, accelerate and expand it ("gently") which is an effecient form of DF with relatively clean air behind it.

Ferrari has a more "brute force" wing. Not to say they don't make some good use of the up- and outwash. They are no idiots

Williams has both a humongous platform and a ridiculously cranked wing. It hurts my brain imagining the aero carnage happening there..

f1316
f1316
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Joined: 22 Feb 2012, 18:36

Re: Ferrari SF23

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Vanja #66 wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 21:55
f1316 wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 20:51
This is Gary Anderson, so pinches of salt at the ready, but:
The area where I have put the magenta line is where Ferrari has added a gurney flap. This is a small 90-degree strip that you fit to the trailing edge to increase the performance of the wing in that area. Its presence shows that Ferrari has been struggling to get enough load out of its front wing, especially at low speed which is where a gurney flap will give you more load than just an increase in wing angle.
https://storage.googleapis.com/the-rac ... 6x864.jpeg
All clear there, but he doesn't have Henk to let him know about the planform! :D Important thing to note as well, by adding planform surface for high-downforce tracks Ferrari basically won't increase drag if they keep this frontal area.
I guess it just makes me question more whether we should actually expect a higher downforce rear wing in Bahrain if doing so will require a new front wing with added planform surface in order to balance (given the current FW is apparently cranked).

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: Ferrari SF23

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f1316 wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 23:52
Vanja #66 wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 21:55
f1316 wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 20:51
This is Gary Anderson, so pinches of salt at the ready, but:



https://storage.googleapis.com/the-rac ... 6x864.jpeg
All clear there, but he doesn't have Henk to let him know about the planform! :D Important thing to note as well, by adding planform surface for high-downforce tracks Ferrari basically won't increase drag if they keep this frontal area.
I guess it just makes me question more whether we should actually expect a higher downforce rear wing in Bahrain if doing so will require a new front wing with added planform surface in order to balance (given the current FW is apparently cranked).
What I've read so far suggest Ferrari are not planning to use a higher downforce rear wing.
A lion must kill its prey.

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Vanja #66
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Re: Ferrari SF23

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Yeah, seems like at most they'll use that tiny bit bigger, single pylon design. Brave
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

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organic
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Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Ferrari SF23

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Agreed - seems to be the approach. Very brave, let's see if it pays off

If a DRS flap splits, can they repair that at the circuit within a week & put in preventative measures? You think they'll race with the single pylon despite the issues in testing?

iHill
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Re: Ferrari SF23

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Stu wrote:
iHill wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 22:44
Henk_v wrote: Ferrari has the smallest planform front wing of all '23 cars

(darn, I cant find that 10 cars viewed form above spic)
Which part is the planform?!
Planform is the area of the wing when (virtually) flattened, the wetted area of the wing.
Thank you!


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iHill
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Re: Ferrari SF23

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DRCorsa wrote:Planform is the area of the wing when looking it from above, not the flattened area.
Thanx!


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f1316
f1316
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Re: Ferrari SF23

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Vanja #66 wrote:
02 Mar 2023, 00:01
Yeah, seems like at most they'll use that tiny bit bigger, single pylon design. Brave
Brave indeed. Conventional wisdom would suggest that if they’re worried about tyre life and have a 10 kph advantage (vs last year), adding ‘dirty’ downforce might be a good idea.

So I hope brave doesn’t become foolish but I’m sure they know ten billion times more about it than I do!