Is Alonso this fast or Räikkönen that slow?

[marcush.]

Back in 2009 he struggled as well with a mediocre Ferrrari ..yes he won in spa but up to Massas accident he could not hold a candle against Felipe.We have to acknowledge neither Badoer nor highly respected Fisichella could even drag the 2009to a points finish... and one would not say Massa is famous for his ability to drag cars not to his liking further than machine deserves...
so we might miss a point here and one is surely the drivers psyche .

[Minusprevious]

We could have the same discussion regarding VET vs RIC or MAS vs BOT or BUT vs MAG. The percentage gap between ALO vs RAI is much larger than the other examples. RAI just bothers me / Maybe its just the flat billed cap

[Sevach]

I expected Alonso to be the superior driver and he sure ain't dissapointing me.

I don't expect Kimi to become a lot faster (in relation to Fernando) if he has a great car, to me he's more or less Button level, super solid but not spetacular.

[condor]

Kimi isn't slow per se. He just isn't adaptable. Whereas Alonso is both adaptable and quick. This is what sorts out the very best of the best, and I put Alonso and Hamilton in that category, from the other fantastic drivers such as Kimi and Vettel. Kimi's driving style doesn't load up the tyres and he isn't able to do things differently for qualifying. We saw this when he was teamed up with Massa during the refuelling years where he was fuelled heavier because he couldn't make full use of low fuel pace and heavier fuel actually helped him load the tyres up a little better. Jenson is similar in that he has to have the car balanced to his style, otherwise he's nowhere. Alonso on the other hand can do anything with a car. He feels and adapts to the car's behaviour. Hamilton is similar.

The other issue for Kimi is that he isn't able to feel this year's Pirelli tyres very well. In a car that suits each of them perfectly, you would probably see very little difference in lap time between most of the experienced drivers such as Alonso, Hamilton, Rosberg, Kimi, Vettel, Jenson or even Massa.

[basti313]

Alonso on the other hand can do anything with a car. He feels and adapts to the car's behaviour. Hamilton is similar.

How do you base that opinion? I get the "Alonso can do anything". That is based on the good results Alonso had in every car for the last 10 years.
But Hamilton? You mean the guy who could not drive the 2011 McL at all or the guy who under performed due to a brake manufacturer he was not used to?

[SiLo]

Alonso on the other hand can do anything with a car. He feels and adapts to the car's behaviour. Hamilton is similar.

How do you base that opinion? I get the "Alonso can do anything". That is based on the good results Alonso had in every car for the last 10 years.
But Hamilton? You mean the guy who could not drive the 2011 McL at all or the guy who under performed due to a brake manufacturer he was not used to?

I think this is always taken the wrong way, we just hear Hamilton complaining a lot more than Alonso. They have both won races when they shouldn't, and both dragged dogs into the points by sheer force of will. Alonso just complains a lot less.

[Richard]

Alonso just complains a lot less.

... on the radio.

I'm sure Alonso is equally demanding behind the scenes. Over achievers like him (compared to mortals like us) are always demanding.

[BanMeToo]

Not only that, Alonso gets very little radio time compared to Hamilton the last few years.

(I mean in terms of the small numbers of messages they play for us during each race.)

[PlatinumZealot]

Alonso on the other hand can do anything with a car. He feels and adapts to the car's behaviour. Hamilton is similar.

How do you base that opinion? I get the "Alonso can do anything". That is based on the good results Alonso had in every car for the last 10 years.
But Hamilton? You mean the guy who could not drive the 2011 McL at all or the guy who under performed due to a brake manufacturer he was not used to?

He could drive the 2011 mclaren car. What have you been watching? He was almost always faster than Button. He never once complained of the cars handling or the tyres. Race pace was good too. You really need to rewatch that season. The problem was that he began crashing once Vettel got into his head.

[Drewd11]

So this has been bothering me all season now. Why does everyone think that Alonso is so adaptable, particularly now that Raikkonen has come into the team and been soundly beaten?
Has everybody completely overlooked the fact that the development of this Ferrari has been driven for several years in precisely the direction that Alonso wanted? How does that show that Alonso is more adaptable than Raikkonen? How has no one considered the possibility that they have entirely opposite driving styles, and that Kimi is driving a car that has been tailored for Alonso's driving style over the years he's been there and clearly doesn't suit?

I hate to take a talking head and assume his ideas are correct, but this bit from Brundle seems pretty reasonable (and when I watched it I had very much the same ideas about the drivers previously and have seen nothing to challenge this opinion since), and mentions that the two have entirely opposite driving styles: Alonso prefers a car he can get to understeer on corner entry with abrupt wheel movements, and Raikkonen needs a car with a planted front end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOhgI1hQA68

So again, how has it become common knowledge that Raikkonen is incapable of adapting to a car that is precisely not to his liking, while Alonso has a reputation for being adaptible while he hasnt changed teams in years and has a car precisely honed to his preferences over years of development?

[basti313]

Alonso on the other hand can do anything with a car. He feels and adapts to the car's behaviour. Hamilton is similar.

How do you base that opinion? I get the "Alonso can do anything". That is based on the good results Alonso had in every car for the last 10 years.
But Hamilton? You mean the guy who could not drive the 2011 McL at all or the guy who under performed due to a brake manufacturer he was not used to?

I think this is always taken the wrong way, we just hear Hamilton complaining a lot more than Alonso. They have both won races when they shouldn't, and both dragged dogs into the points by sheer force of will. Alonso just complains a lot less.

But this being superior occasionally is the total opposite of being adaptable. Except for this season we could see it in every season: Even in his WC season Ham was either on the top or nowhere.
This is the total opposite of Alonso being on the podium for nearly the whole season like in 2012.

Not only that, Alonso gets very little radio time compared to Hamilton the last few years.

(I mean in terms of the small numbers of messages they play for us during each race.)

Yes, this is only what FOM shows. This is about coding, or talking Italian...or being nowhere. There was much on the radio from Alo in 2012. Now we get one Italian message per race and that is all. On the other hand Ham is speaking rather clearly on the radio and is giving some "Leave me alone"-Raikkonen talking on the radio, which FOM likes. But this has nothing to do with how much they are really talking with their pits.

He could drive the 2011 mclaren car. What have you been watching? He was almost always faster than Button. He never once complained of the cars handling or the tyres. Race pace was good too. You really need to rewatch that season. The problem was that he began crashing once Vettel got into his head.

Come on, we know Button's pace. Ham is capable of destroying Button in Q. Except for his occasional superior drives (when everything fits and he got his tires working like in China) Ham was mostly behind Button in mid and second half 2011 in Q and race pace.

[Miguel]

First of all, that video is from 2006, when Renault was using Michelin tyres that were very friendly with high slip angles. Check his driving much later, like in, say, 2007. It's very different. Or in the 2001 Minardi. Additionally, Alonso was immediately faster than Massa in 2010, and Ferrari had had Kimi and Massa driving for them for the previous 3 (4) years. Alonso''s also fast in changeable conditions, and in difficult cars. This year's Ferrari is anything but easy.

[Andres125sx]

So this has been bothering me all season now. Why does everyone think that Alonso is so adaptable, particularly now that Raikkonen has come into the team and been soundly beaten?
Has everybody completely overlooked the fact that the development of this Ferrari has been driven for several years in precisely the direction that Alonso wanted?

That´s true.... but you should also consider the opposite. When Alonso signed in for Ferrari, Ferrari had been developing the car for Kimi´s driving style for several seassons, and Alonso won his ver first race with Ferrari.

[diffuser]

So this has been bothering me all season now. Why does everyone think that Alonso is so adaptable, particularly now that Raikkonen has come into the team and been soundly beaten?
Has everybody completely overlooked the fact that the development of this Ferrari has been driven for several years in precisely the direction that Alonso wanted?

That´s true.... but you should also consider the opposite. When Alonso signed in for Ferrari, Ferrari had been developing the car for Kimi´s driving style for several seassons, and Alonso won his ver first race with Ferrari.

yes, and let's not forget what has happened at Red Bull. The car has been built around Vettel and now Riccardo is leading the way. When you got it, you've got it.

[basti313]

So this has been bothering me all season now. Why does everyone think that Alonso is so adaptable, particularly now that Raikkonen has come into the team and been soundly beaten?
Has everybody completely overlooked the fact that the development of this Ferrari has been driven for several years in precisely the direction that Alonso wanted?

That´s true.... but you should also consider the opposite. When Alonso signed in for Ferrari, Ferrari had been developing the car for Kimi´s driving style for several seassons, and Alonso won his ver first race with Ferrari.

That is a rather bad example. The Ferrari was very good and Alonso and Massa were never closer to each others pace as in the beginning of 2010. It took 7 races until Alonso really got the hand over Massa, who just came back from his accident. So from this example I would rather say the development theory is good, but this is hard to judge.