Evolution and limit of battery energy density

[ChrisF1]

Any update on that in the past 6 years?

[Andres125sx]

http://www.computerworld.com/article/30 ... etime.html

Researchers have pursued using nanowires in batteries for years because the filaments, thousands of times thinner than a human hair, are highly conductive and have a large surface area for the storage and transfer of electrons.

The problem they have encountered, however, is that nanowires are also extremely fragile and don't hold up well to repeated discharging and recharging, known as "cycling." For example, in a typical lithium-ion battery, they expand and grow brittle, which leads to cracking.

[...]

"All nanowire capacitors can be extended from 2000 to 8000 cycles to more than 100,000 cycles, simply by replacing a liquid electrolyte with a... gel electrolyte," the researchers wrote in their paper.

The result: commercial batteries that could last a lifetime in computers, smartphones, appliances, cars and spacecraft.

[mzso]

http://www.computerworld.com/article/30 ... etime.html

Researchers have pursued using nanowires in batteries for years because the filaments, thousands of times thinner than a human hair, are highly conductive and have a large surface area for the storage and transfer of electrons.

The problem they have encountered, however, is that nanowires are also extremely fragile and don't hold up well to repeated discharging and recharging, known as "cycling." For example, in a typical lithium-ion battery, they expand and grow brittle, which leads to cracking.

[...]

"All nanowire capacitors can be extended from 2000 to 8000 cycles to more than 100,000 cycles, simply by replacing a liquid electrolyte with a... gel electrolyte," the researchers wrote in their paper.

The result: commercial batteries that could last a lifetime in computers, smartphones, appliances, cars and spacecraft.

Unfortunately you get like a dozen of news like this a year. Nanowires so far proved to be way too expensive. The paper mostly focuses on capacitors which have a lot lower energy density.

[Andres125sx]

http://www.computerworld.com/article/30 ... etime.html

Researchers have pursued using nanowires in batteries for years because the filaments, thousands of times thinner than a human hair, are highly conductive and have a large surface area for the storage and transfer of electrons.

The problem they have encountered, however, is that nanowires are also extremely fragile and don't hold up well to repeated discharging and recharging, known as "cycling." For example, in a typical lithium-ion battery, they expand and grow brittle, which leads to cracking.

[...]

"All nanowire capacitors can be extended from 2000 to 8000 cycles to more than 100,000 cycles, simply by replacing a liquid electrolyte with a... gel electrolyte," the researchers wrote in their paper.

The result: commercial batteries that could last a lifetime in computers, smartphones, appliances, cars and spacecraft.

Unfortunately you get like a dozen of news like this a year. Nanowires so far proved to be way too expensive. The paper mostly focuses on capacitors which have a lot lower energy density.

No you don´t get a dozen news like this a year, this is great news. Not what will change the world, but a step forward in that direction

btw, everything is too expensive when it only is a prototype. And main problem is not price, but difficulty to handle nanowires and make efficient arrangements due to its atomic size. Nothing wich can´t be solved in the future.

Not a short term project tough, that´s true.

[mzso]

http://www.computerworld.com/article/30 ... etime.html

Unfortunately you get like a dozen of news like this a year. Nanowires so far proved to be way too expensive. The paper mostly focuses on capacitors which have a lot lower energy density.

No you don´t get a dozen news like this a year, this is great news. Not what will change the world, but a step forward in that direction

btw, everything is too expensive when it only is a prototype. And main problem is not price, but difficulty to handle nanowires and make efficient arrangements due to its atomic size. Nothing wich can´t be solved in the future.

Not a short term project tough, that´s true.

Then you don't follow the right news sources.
Scientists have been experimenting with nanowires for maybe like a decade now. Some concluded that they're too expensive and moved on to other things.

[Andres125sx]

And how many of them managed to find a solution to their short lifespan?

[mzso]

And how many of them managed to find a solution to their short lifespan?

None. Including this one.
None of these neat sounding developments made it into real products. I'm sure sometime we will have significant battery improvements however when that will be remains to be seen.

[Pierce89]

Sorry flynfrog, but you´re constantly changing your arguing to find something to bash EVs. I´m still waiting for your explanation about what did you mean with the limit of electricity an atom can charge because energy density can increase more than enough.... Then you talked about historical trends and I replied saying battery development on 30´s can´t be compared with current today and provided some graphs wich show the big step forward LiS batteries will suppose. Now you talk about fitting curves wich is a nosense for the subject.... You even said "our brilliant leaders have made it all but impossible to build new power plants so we wont be able to charge them anyway"...

Looks like you´re doing a big effort looking for something to bash EVs, I only reply your argumentation, providing links and graphs to prove my points. This is a discussion forum, and we´re discussing, what´s the problem? Maybe you can´t find more arguments to explain how useless are EVs?


BTW, I perfectly understand what a fitting curve is, but please explain me what relevance does that have for battery development.

I am not bashing EVs I am talking about rate of development of battery energy density. You take anything short of bowing at the altar of EV as bashing and make it your personal mission to defend them at all costs. There are some real issues facing EV implementation simply glazing of them as bashing is doing a disservice the people in the trenches actually working on them. Im willing to bet I have more miles in a prototype EV than anyone on the forum I have had to deal with these issues in the real world.

As hollus pointed out your data matches mine its the same rate I have no idea how to make you see this.

Thanks Hollus I mixed up the 8% and 5% doubling rate. You are stating pretty much the point I was trying to get across. I see your segway and raise you
http://bikewar.files.wordpress.com/2014 ... =640&h=384
unlimited range and can be recharged with lager, espresso, or sandwich think of the fuel possibilities.

Although I am pretty sure I have a set of these tires in garage.
http://www.walyou.com/img/offroad-segwa ... oncept.jpg


Hollus I think you will see better implementation as price drops more than you will see with increased range. Much the same way solar energy adoption came with price drop more than it did increased efficiency. Much the say way I find the Volt more impressive than the tesla. Sure the Tesla is an impressive piece of kit but they could pretty much charge any price they wanted most people buy them as a second or third car. The Volt is actually getting closer to a price point the average consumer can afford.

The Volt only sells for its price because the US government subsidized the all the development.

[Andres125sx]

And how many of them managed to find a solution to their short lifespan?

None. Including this one.

Not fair, they made first step and now they must face next one wich is even tougher, agree, but let them try at least

[mzso]

And how many of them managed to find a solution to their short lifespan?

None. Including this one.

Not fair, they made first step and now they must face next one wich is even tougher, agree, but let them try at least

Of course it's fair. Usually they only get as far as a news report.
I believe I didn't stop them from trying. Also good luck to them.
I wouldn't get my hopes up based on this though.

[Andres125sx]

None. Including this one.

Not fair, they made first step and now they must face next one wich is even tougher, agree, but let them try at least

Of course it's fair. Usually they only get as far as a news report.
I believe I didn't stop them from trying. Also good luck to them.
I wouldn't get my hopes up based on this though.

Usually mean nothing about this project

But please don´t get me wrong, I don´t think this will be the final solution, but I don´t like critizicing new projects before they finish their job

[bill shoe]

This thread addresses a great issue. So does anyone know-- Are the recent seemingly-large gains in battery energy density coming from getting closer to a fixed theoretical limit, or are they coming from moving the theoretical limit further outward?

I think I was too skeptical about battery gains ~5 years ago.

[mzso]

This thread addresses a great issue. So does anyone know-- Are the recent seemingly-large gains in battery energy density coming from getting closer to a fixed theoretical limit, or are they coming from moving the theoretical limit further outward?

I think I was too skeptical about battery gains ~5 years ago.

What gains? Batteries are stack around max 200-250 Wh/kg for a long while now.
The theoretical limit depends on the technology used. Metal-air batteries have the biggest potential, theoretically: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal%E2% ... mical_cell

[Andres125sx]

Quant claims their nano flow cell improves energy density of previous fuel cells by a factor of 5!

That´s still similar to Li-Ion, but it´s cheaper, environement friendly... and liquid, wich is awesome for automotive industry as cars in need of a charge only need to fill their tanks with charged electrolite

The numbers they claim are too good to be true, 1090bhp and up to 800km range

Thank you Marcus for the link!

[mzso]

Quant claims their nano flow cell improves energy density of previous fuel cells by a factor of 5!

That´s still similar to Li-Ion, but it´s cheaper, environement friendly... and liquid, wich is awesome for automotive industry as cars in need of a charge only need to fill their tanks with charged electrolite

The numbers they claim are too good to be true, 1090bhp and up to 800km range

Thank you Marcus for the link!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFcDAbcQIKE

Rather old news. And sadly nothing revolutionary. They were calculating with a 200-800 liter tank. Which is a joke...
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/03 ... quant.html