Numbers of Hamilton and Senna

[NathanOlder]

Yeah, agreed.

Stats are similar, Lewis is happy. Lets put this one to bed.

[Andres125sx]

Top drivers never do such a risky bet.

Really?

Alonso to Mclaren Honda
Schumacher to Ferrari
Hamilton to Mercedes

Are you really comparing those three monsters with a new team in F1?

I agree those were risky bets, but even so not comparable with joining a new team in F1 with no previous experience, and that was what we were talking about

[Andres125sx]

And for you to write off a team with a huge budget with Newey onboard makes you as foolish as the people that thought he wouldn't win anything at Red Bull. And we all know how very wrong they all were.

As I said, hindsight is great for us armchair experts


Reality is no top driver has ever signed for a new team, it could be a coincidence, or it could be they know what they´re doing

[NathanOlder]

Jacques Villeneuve in 99 maybe ?

I would have a good guess and Say that he was still the world champion when he signed for the new team BAR.

[Kingshark]

2000, 2001, 2003, 2005 Mclaren had their driver finish runner up. It was always a fast car.

In 2003 they had to use a revised MP4-17D because that is how badly Newey messed up on the MP4-18. Raikkonen drove the best season of his career. In 2001 they were nowhere near Ferrari. Only about 2000 and 2005 do you have a point.

[NathanOlder]

2000, 2001, 2003, 2005 Mclaren had their driver finish runner up. It was always a fast car.

In 2003 they had to use a revised MP4-17D because that is how badly Newey messed up on the MP4-18. Raikkonen drove the best season of his career. In 2001 they were nowhere near Ferrari. Only about 2000 and 2005 do you have a point.

So in 2001 and 2003 Mclaren had a slow car ? They won 5 races in 2001 (4 actual wins with Mika in Spain retiring with less than a lap to go while leading) and won 2 races in 2003. You cant do that without a fast car.

[ringo]

Why are Senna's pole numbers so high though?
What was happening at the time that permitted such a strike rate?

Hamilton has pretty good pole numbers as well, but you could see where he may have had a pol specialist teammate, and slightly slower car, or just plain making mistakes. It's more averaged out for Lewis.

Senna's number of poles are almost more impressive than his wins to me in some ways.

[Kingshark]

IMO, a fast car is relative. In both 2001 and 2003 McLaren were behind Ferrari by a modest margin. Anyway, let's just agree to disagree before this thread derails completely off-topic.

Back on topic, contrary to popular belief Hamilton has not had better cars than Senna in his career. Excluding his rookie season with Toleman, Senna has always had good. In those 9 seasons (from 1985-1993) his cars have been almost identical in competitiveness to Hamilton's 9 cars from 2007 to 2015.

- Senna's Lotus cars in 1985 and 1986 were the third best, and in 1987 it was the second best.
- Senna's McLaren Honda cars in 1988 and 1989 were über dominant.
- Senna's McLaren's in 1990 and 1991 were roughly equal best with Ferrari and Williams respectively.
- And the McLaren cars of 1992 and 1993 were second best behind the monstrous Williams cars.

Senna spent two years in a dominant car, two years in the equal best car, and 5 years in the 2nd/3rd best car

- Hamilton's McLaren cars in 2007 and 2008 were equal best with Ferrari roughly.
- The McLaren cars Hamilton drove between 2009 and 2012 were constantly either 2nd or 3rd best, always behind Red Bull.
- Hamilton's 2013 Mercedes was 2nd/3rd best behind Red Bull, about on par with Ferrari and Lotus.
- Hamilton has enjoyed dominant cars with Mercedes in 2014 and 2015.

Hamilton also spent two years in a dominant car, two years in the equal best car, and 5 years in the 2nd/3rd best car

[NathanOlder]

Totally agree with that, so how about comparing the calibre of their team mates.

In my opinion , I have put their team mates in order of how I rate them.

Senna - Hamilton

Prost = Alonso
Prost > Button
Hakkinen > Button
Berger < Button
Berger = Rosberg
Berger = Rosberg
Nakajima < Rosberg
De Angelis > Kovalainen
Dumfries < Kovalainen

So over the 9 years we can compare, Senna had a stronger team mate on 3 occasions and Lewis had a stronger team mate on 3 occasions. And equal in 3 occasions. All in my opinion so im not looking to argue.
Oh and I forgot to mention
Andretti < everyone.

[Kingshark]

I am only counting the drivers Senna was teammates with for at least 12 races, so that automatically disqualifies Hakkinen, Hill, and all his teammates in 1984.

I will rate all of Senna and Hamilton's teammates from best to worst (fairly objective IMO):

1. Prost
2. Alonso
3. Button
4. Rosberg
5. Berger
6. De Angelis
7. Kovalainen
8. Nakajima
9. Dumfries
10. Andretti

[NathanOlder]

Yeah so pretty much rated the way i rated them all.

[PlatinumZealot]

I would rate Rosberg Higher than Button. Why? Because Button was never a threat to Hamilton's pole stats and we are talking stats right?

[void]

Vettel and Hamilton numbers cannot be compared with Senna, Prost and Fangio numbers. The numbers came from the same sport only, but in complete different scenarios. F-1 nowadays is a one WCC contender, we had Ferrari era with Schumacher, Brawn era with Button, RBR era with Vettel and now we are living Mercedes era with Hamilton. In the past was Senna vs Prost (ok, with a dominant McLaren ) fighting head to head to win. When we have competition between drivers are only two fighting for the championship and almost every time from the same team.

[ringo]

Totally agree with that, so how about comparing the calibre of their team mates.

In my opinion , I have put their team mates in order of how I rate them.

Senna - Hamilton

Prost = Alonso
Prost > Button
Hakkinen > Button
Berger < Button
Berger = Rosberg
Berger = Rosberg
Nakajima < Rosberg
De Angelis > Kovalainen
Dumfries < Kovalainen

So over the 9 years we can compare, Senna had a stronger team mate on 3 occasions and Lewis had a stronger team mate on 3 occasions. And equal in 3 occasions. All in my opinion so im not looking to argue.
Oh and I forgot to mention
Andretti < everyone.

You also have to look if those drivers were at the peak of their powers when they were paired with Senna.
I think Hamilton faced his teammates at their best. Alonso, Button for example were reigning champions. Rosberg was at his best after facing and surviving shumacher, and Heiki was like the new fast guy in F1, somewhat like a Kubica or Ricciardo.

[Racer X]

You can't compare them Hamilton does not race next to a top driver the way Senna raced next to Prost.

Plain and simple Senna had a real competitor next to him to challenge the legitimacy of his skill as apposed to the car just being better then the rest.

We now know it was they had carbon fibre.

Where as Hamilton has Nico Ross who clearly can't compete with him. Put Vettel or Alonso in the other car and maybe.


Plus if we compare raw data.
Schumacher is better then both of them and Vettel is better then both of them too.