Micheal Schumacher...The most complete driver....

Tom · Post 11 May 2006, 20:21

Scuderia_Russ wrote

Damon punted Schumacher off the road

Wow wow wow!

!

I think you must be confused here, Michael had nothing to loose by punting Damon off, Damon had everything to loose.
And after seeing what he did in '97 (you must remember that, when Michael without doubt and quite deliberatly tried to run Mr Villenurve off the road when he knew he wasn't going to win) I'm pretty sure the FIA wondered if they shouldn't have deemed Adelaide a racing incident. Clearly this man is a good driver which makes it even less understandable that he feels he must punch others off the road to win.

I have little doubt that Michaels move was deliberate, his suspension was damaged bejond repair and he would not have finished so he descided that Damon wouldn't either, therefore handing himself the championship.
Perhaps Hill was being too optimistic but even if Michael had been able to continue he should still have given Damon room to pass rather than endangering both their lives by butting into him.

Scuderia_Russ · Post 11 May 2006, 21:56

Tom wrote:Scuderia_Russ wrote

Damon punted Schumacher off the road
Wow wow wow! !

I think you must be confused here, Michael had nothing to loose by punting Damon off, Damon had everything to loose.
And after seeing what he did in '97 (you must remember that, when Michael without doubt and quite deliberatly tried to run Mr Villenurve off the road when he knew he wasn't going to win) I'm pretty sure the FIA wondered if they shouldn't have deemed Adelaide a racing incident. Clearly this man is a good driver which makes it even less understandable that he feels he must punch others off the road to win.

I have little doubt that Michaels move was deliberate, his suspension was damaged bejond repair and he would not have finished so he descided that Damon wouldn't either, therefore handing himself the championship.
Perhaps Hill was being too optimistic but even if Michael had been able to continue he should still have given Damon room to pass rather than endangering both their lives by butting into him.

Clearly it is you that is confused Tom. Whatever happened in 1997 has nothing to do with Damon running Schumacher off the road, when he was on the racing line.

Michael had nothing to loose by punting Damon off, Damon had everything to loose.

This just does not make any sense. When there is a one point gap in the championship, how can one driver have more to lose than the other in the event of one of them taking the other one out of the race?!

I'm pretty sure the FIA wondered if they shouldn't have deemed Adelaide a racing incident.

Tom, how old were you when the F.I.A. were deliberating on whether this was a racing incident and how did you manage to get access to their internal decision making process? Yes I am being sarcastic, it's a bad habit of mine but I hate people posting wild speculation as fact.

even if Michael had been able to continue he should still have given Damon room to pass.

So let me get this straight, If a driver falls off the road he should let the guy behind him overtake before he resumes racing again?! because that is what this line sounds like.

EDIT: By the way, in the photo you posted it sure looks like Damon is doing the punting to me!

DaveKillens · Post 11 May 2006, 22:08

Opinions, we've all got them. Funny thing is, many young fans claim to be Ferrari and Schumacher fans, But few are just Ferrari fans. Hmm, interesting.
No doubt Michael is a great driver, and as we all can see, it's definitely debatable whether he's "the greatest".
Me, I'm just a race fan, and enjoy good, exciting racing. And to be honest, many of Shu's races are horribly boring or anti-climatic. I see a great racer with maybe the best strategic skills ever, but one I really don't give a whit, or will miss when he retires. trust me, in this day and age, the car and team are the most important factor in success. And the truth is, Michael built an incredible team around him. In each race he has won, Ross Braun and Jean Todt were just as important. Neither could have won without the other.
And that's why, personally, I can never think of Michael as number one. Many other great racers I like and respect have been victorious because of their racing abilities and personal tenacity, and have won not because they had the best car and team, but because they tried harder, drove better, and refused to accept anything but victory.
Think about this. At last week's race at Nurburgring, do you think Michael would have beat Alonso if Massa's and Fisi's roles had been reversed? What if the number two at Ferrari has stumbled, and Fisi qualified third? What if Alonso had more sets of fresh tires, and didn't have a red car dogging him throughout the first half of the race?
It's a team sport, ladies and gentlemen.

m3_lover · Post 11 May 2006, 22:12

Im still surprised that this thread is open, I could say Ide is the best driver in the world, but would I, no because it is just stupid comparing drivers.

Tp · Post 11 May 2006, 23:18

DaveKillens wrote:many of Shu's races are horribly boring or anti-climatic

I think it's unfair to blame Schumacher for this, when its the other drivers faults (and teams for that matter) that the races are boring, not his (Or Ferrari's). What are Ferrari and Schumacher supposed to do? Slow down so they can all catch up?

Sawtooth-spike · Post 11 May 2006, 23:28

can we just let this topic go please

I think we need to put this whole topic up as an example of why we should never enter into Why such and such is go good, or who is better, cus its just ends up with bad feeling.

Tom · Post 11 May 2006, 23:30

Looks like I touched a nerve.
Scuderia_Russ.

1. 1997 was the exact same scenario. Michael saw the championship slipping away so he put a stop to it. Rather cruedly in both cases.

2. Damon was clearly going to take that race and the championship from Michael and they both knew it. They also knew that if neither finished Michael would be champion. Nothing to loose by bumping Damon off.

3. 5y/o

4. If the driver makes a mistake that results in him going much slower through a corner and the other guy makes a move on him then surely the first guy should give plenty of room, after all it was his mistake and the second guy is carrying that much more speed that it would be dangerouse to block him.

5. The photo was taken towards the end of the incident and Damon is clearly on the kerb (those horrible multicoloured kurbs, never go to Adelaide with a hangover) trying to avoid the Benneton. Besides sometimes it takes more than a photo to tell a story.

I don't mean to be rude, nasty or fall out with you Scuderia_Russ.
I value all of your opinions and you are definetly one of the people who makes this site work. That doesn't mean I agree with you though.
In this case I think you are wrong. You think I'm wrong. We have both put forward strong arguments so I think we should call a truce and agree to disagree.

manchild · Post 11 May 2006, 23:52

Damon passed 1/2 of Schuey's car in 1994 so by FIA sporting regulations Schuey had to give him space instead of closing him... Even F1 encyclopedias mention that as "classic Schuey move".

He can't get amnesty now just because he has 7 titles. All parts of his career are parts of career regardless if they were good or bad. Attempts to artificially idealize his biography are obvious but that simply can’t be done. He is the driver with “most” of trophies, poles, wins but also with most technical and sporting illegalities and therefore “legend” is something he’ll never be. Statistics solely never made anyone a legend.

m3_lover · Post 12 May 2006, 05:06

Im calling for a lock on this thread.

DaveKillens · Post 12 May 2006, 05:37

m3_lover wrote:Im calling for a lock on this thread.

Heck, if you don't like it, don't click the link. The discussion hasn't gotten that ugly, and besides, a free exchamge of differing opinions is what a forum is all about.

emburmak · Post 12 May 2006, 21:13

It is nice to MS able to do his trademark banzai laps to leapfrog FA at the ring. What baffles me is FA still not acknowledging the Ferrari/MS threat. It seems he needs telling that this year he has a genuine fight for the WDC!

Tom · Post 12 May 2006, 23:06

Perhaps he knows something we don't?

captainmorgan · Post 13 May 2006, 05:37

I thought the original post had something of a misrepresentation in it. "Sand-bagging" Alonso was neither a 'mark of genius' nor was it a new tactic by Schumacher. Ferrari have essentially used that tactic for half of Schumacher's tenure, except on the 2nd car. How many of Schumacher's wins were due to Barrichello in 2nd holding up the entire field behind him?

Granted, some of those sand-bagging races were totally unnecessary as Ferrari on many occasions had the far superior car. But you can infer many things from these tactics, not the least of which is an implication of MS' character!

For instance, Schumacher's greatest trademark 'strength' might arguably be his ability to "put the hammer down" before and after pitstops when he has no one behind him. Ask yourself what this means. Is it really a strength, to say that MS can only put down fast laps when he doesnt have the pressure of someone behind him?

This is why I argue that it is a fallacy to call MS the most 'complete' driver. Of course he is a great driver. That is undeniable. But I have no reason to think that he could have had anywhere close to that success without the level of help he had from Ferrari, and from all those races where Barrichello blocked for him, not to mention team orders.

Until then, MS can only be called perhaps the greatest component, or greatest part of a winning combination. If MS switched teams, and was able to take a WC when the field of technical abilities of the cars were even or put him at a disadvantage, then and only then would there be enough to call him one of the greatest.

Alonso might have gotten lucky last year, but he did keep it together vs. Schumacher in the early races and Raikonnen in the later races, who was in a vastly superior car. Hypothetically speaking, and given that he switches to McLaren next year, if he wins by the end of next season, I think people would have to call FA a greater champion than MS, even despite MS' numerical WC under his belt.

Scuderia_Russ · Post 13 May 2006, 09:26

captainmorgan wrote: How many of Schumacher's wins were due to Barrichello in 2nd holding up the entire field behind him?

I reckon he is just slower!

Tp · Post 13 May 2006, 11:09

How many of Schumacher's wins were due to Barrichello in 2nd holding up the entire field behind him?

So Schumacher is a 7 times world champion all because Barrichello backed the field up?

If MS switched teams, and was able to take a WC when the field of technical abilities of the cars were even or put him at a disadvantage, then and only then would there be enough to call him one of the greatest.

Well, he did, from Benetton to Ferrari. After winning the world championship for Benetton twice, Michael then moved to Ferrari for 1996 relishing the challenge of making the Italian team world champions again. And guess what, he did