The Williams sidepods looked very elegant hope they copy themBlueCheetah66 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2022, 15:40Realistically a mix of the two would just be the Williams sidepods from the start of the year
The Williams sidepods looked very elegant hope they copy themBlueCheetah66 wrote: ↑23 Dec 2022, 15:40Realistically a mix of the two would just be the Williams sidepods from the start of the year
Mercedes have so much to re do for the W14.Henk_v wrote: ↑13 Dec 2022, 20:57As far as I've read reports (which are probably biassed if teams are against the reg change), the venom is in the higher venturi throat. This is right where all the gearbox and suspension bits are. Lower airspeed in the throat means they can have even more agressive diffuser expansion after it. Some floors / diffusers already had indentations to allow for whishbone travel or drive axles. Raising the throat seems to have some large implications for at least some teams. But maybe they just exaggerated.
I don't think anyone outside Brackley/Brixworth really knows that for sure. If we look at it objectively, now that we've been through a year of the new regs, Merc has had enough time to figure out where their deficit to the competition lies and what they need to get back to the front. Their performance target won't be to be to be on par with the 2022 RB and Ferrari, it would be 2022+X% as everyone will have improved by next year.De Jokke wrote: ↑25 Dec 2022, 21:55Has merc shot themselves in the foot by not going the ferrari way with the engine?
Both teams knew pretty soon that it wasn't going to be their year. Ferrari pushed its engine but has now 30hp extra coming for 23, while merc had a solid engine in terms of reliability in 2022, but I'm afraid nothing big is coming for 23...
Your thoughts?
Mercedes have been outspoken about the time and labour that went into understanding their issues (and wind tunnel time, too), and how hard the budget cap makes it to fundamentally change their car during the season. Even once they purported to finally understand their issues, they were limited in their ability to tackle them in-season. They'd probably have brought a B-spec by the summer break if this was 2019, but it isn't.SuperCNJ wrote: ↑26 Dec 2022, 02:04...De Jokke wrote: ↑25 Dec 2022, 21:55Has merc shot themselves in the foot by not going the ferrari way with the engine?
Both teams knew pretty soon that it wasn't going to be their year. Ferrari pushed its engine but has now 30hp extra coming for 23, while merc had a solid engine in terms of reliability in 2022, but I'm afraid nothing big is coming for 23...
Your thoughts?
If they felt that the performance from their current concepts, be that the aero, suspension or PU is not capable of delivering the performance target they need, I'm sure they would have changed it by now.
...
The reliability updates can unlock power that's inherently there in the PU which is being held back due to unreliability, like in case of Ferrari. I don't recall Mercedes stating anything similar this year. They even brought updates to PU with revised software maps to run the PU a little harder in US as part of the overall car upgrade as their reliability was good to do so. In some races they have run a little lower on fuel and had to back off at the end of races. I wonder if there is more left in that PU to extract via reliability upgrades without hurting fuel economy and fuel consumption is something a manufacturer cannot solve without combustion redesign, which doesn't qualify as reliability upgrade.Vaexa wrote: ↑26 Dec 2022, 04:49Mercedes have been outspoken about the time and labour that went into understanding their issues (and wind tunnel time, too), and how hard the budget cap makes it to fundamentally change their car during the season. Even once they purported to finally understand their issues, they were limited in their ability to tackle them in-season. They'd probably have brought a B-spec by the summer break if this was 2019, but it isn't.SuperCNJ wrote: ↑26 Dec 2022, 02:04...De Jokke wrote: ↑25 Dec 2022, 21:55Has merc shot themselves in the foot by not going the ferrari way with the engine?
Both teams knew pretty soon that it wasn't going to be their year. Ferrari pushed its engine but has now 30hp extra coming for 23, while merc had a solid engine in terms of reliability in 2022, but I'm afraid nothing big is coming for 23...
Your thoughts?
If they felt that the performance from their current concepts, be that the aero, suspension or PU is not capable of delivering the performance target they need, I'm sure they would have changed it by now.
...
That's not to mention PU updates are ostensibly allowed only for reliability and have to go through a lengthy process that includes, as I understand it, any proposed changes being disclosed to the other manufacturers. Ferrari have alluded to a limit on reliability updates as well, but nothing very concrete there.
Renault were very transparent about building a fast but fragile engine for 2022 and fixing the reliability issues later because they're allowed to do that. Doesn't matter if the Mercedes is reliable if the other manufacturers are allowed to make theirs reliable too.
Addendum: Mercedes did in fact submit reliability updates for their power unit, with (if memory serves) PU3 including a reinforced crank case.
I don't see that happening. Ferrari might return to their "peak power" in 2022 (sort of like Spain, Miami, Baku time), which was more than what they were running at the end, but not 30HP more. 30HP is several years of real engine development. Next year is supposed to be a reliability fix, not a performance upgrade. If their engine becomes more powerful than it ever was in 2022 it's obviously a performance upgrade.De Jokke wrote: ↑25 Dec 2022, 21:55Has merc shot themselves in the foot by not going the ferrari way with the engine?
Both teams knew pretty soon that it wasn't going to be their year. Ferrari pushed its engine but has now 30hp extra coming for 23, while merc had a solid engine in terms of reliability in 2022, but I'm afraid nothing big is coming for 23...
Your thoughts?
Of course it matters. This period from 2022-2025 is only 4 years. If your engine is bad for the first year that's 1 in 4 gone (unfortunately Merc screwed up the car so they couldn't take advantage of their reliability). And I think it's underestimating the challenge to suggest an engine manufacturer can solve all their reliability issues in one season and then unleash the full potential of the engine for the remaining 3 years. I expect Renault and Ferrari to still have the worst reliability next season.Vaexa wrote: ↑26 Dec 2022, 04:49
Renault were very transparent about building a fast but fragile engine for 2022 and fixing the reliability issues later because they're allowed to do that. Doesn't matter if the Mercedes is reliable if the other manufacturers are allowed to make theirs reliable too.
Addendum: Mercedes did in fact submit reliability updates for their power unit, with (if memory serves) PU3 including a reinforced crank case.
It is infact easier to fix all the reliability issues in a year, provided a manufacturer understands all the issues that are bogging the engine down. Unlike in the past years, the manufacturer need not have to focus on finding performance while working on reliability fixes and the overall design remains constant. There is very little chance of inducing new problem with reliability fixes when the focus is just solving the existing problem.Cs98 wrote: ↑26 Dec 2022, 12:14And I think it's underestimating the challenge to suggest an engine manufacturer can solve all their reliability issues in one season and then unleash the full potential of the engine for the remaining 3 years. I expect Renault and Ferrari to still have the worst reliability next season.
Who says they aren't trying to find performance?jordanb wrote: ↑27 Dec 2022, 02:37It is infact easier to fix all the reliability issues in a year, provided a manufacturer understands all the issues that are bogging the engine down. Unlike in the past years, the manufacturer need not have to focus on finding performance while working on reliability fixes and the overall design remains constant. There is very little chance of inducing new problem with reliability fixes when the focus is just solving the existing problem.Cs98 wrote: ↑26 Dec 2022, 12:14And I think it's underestimating the challenge to suggest an engine manufacturer can solve all their reliability issues in one season and then unleash the full potential of the engine for the remaining 3 years. I expect Renault and Ferrari to still have the worst reliability next season.
It's the same F1 where competitors are trying to hold back others from finding gains. These reliability upgrades go through validation process with competitors before getting approved. If a reliability upgrade helps unlock performance, that's the whole purpose of enhancing reliability. So fair enough. But if someone tries to push a performance upgrade under the guise of reliability, that's a deviation from their frozen design, do you think competitors let that happen?AR3-GP wrote: ↑27 Dec 2022, 04:36Who says they aren't trying to find performance?jordanb wrote: ↑27 Dec 2022, 02:37It is infact easier to fix all the reliability issues in a year, provided a manufacturer understands all the issues that are bogging the engine down. Unlike in the past years, the manufacturer need not have to focus on finding performance while working on reliability fixes and the overall design remains constant. There is very little chance of inducing new problem with reliability fixes when the focus is just solving the existing problem.Cs98 wrote: ↑26 Dec 2022, 12:14And I think it's underestimating the challenge to suggest an engine manufacturer can solve all their reliability issues in one season and then unleash the full potential of the engine for the remaining 3 years. I expect Renault and Ferrari to still have the worst reliability next season.
this is F1 we are talking about.