Raikkonen to NASCAR!!!

Please discuss here all your remarks and pose your questions about all racing series, except Formula One. Both technical and other questions about GP2, Touring cars, IRL, LMS, ...
Shrek
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i wonder if we can send this thread to NASCAR, granted acording to Brian France "everything is perfect"(not really)
and to add to Jersey Tom's post, i've wondered what would happen if they took off the rear spoiler and put no other aero aid (except for restrictor plate races)
Spencer

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Ray
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Jersey Tom wrote:Don't get started on --- you don't have a damn clue about.
All I can go off of is the last 15 years or so of right front tires exploding at least once a race. That's fact. Whether or not it's entirely Goodyears fault I can't say because I have no definitive proof. But don't you think it's a bit strange that the only tire supplier has such spectacular failures every single race. Sure, the cars are heavy and it's a really small tire for what it's on, but if they can make tires for an 8000+ HP Top Fuel dragster, why can't they make one for NASCAR that doesn't explode regularly. Seriously, it happens in 90% of the races and has happened as far back as I can remember watching NASCAR races.

Are there fans who would much rather see an American win races and titles in NASCAR rather than foreigners? Sure. Thankfully, the fans don't control the races.
Jersey Tom wrote:Every week, you know what the rules are. You build your car, engineers get the best setup they can, driver hops in and away you go. It's not like the governing body has some big switchboard control panel during the race where they can press a button and make one guy's engine go down a cylinder or some BS like that. From a competition standpoint, nothing is stacked against anyone.
Really? You don't think that a blind eye has been turned on Chad Knaus in his run of 5 consecutive championships? You don't think Earnhardt got away with rule infractions? There are favorites, there are cards stacked and there have been illegal cars that weren't DQ'd and many have belonged to championship contenders. NASCAR has been famous for rigging races with cautions and letting rules infractions go depending on who the drivers and teams broke the rules. Smokey Yunick was disqualified more times than I can count for not breaking rules. He was the smartest man to step into a NASCAR garage and was forced out because he was innovative.

It's a shame Kimi hasn't gone to the ALMS or the LMS. That's real racing, every ALMS race I've seen was fantastic and didn't have the WWE crap that NASCAR has.

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Ray
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Jersey Tom wrote:Well, having worked in a couple roles in NASCAR both as a supplier and on a team... funny how no one I've worked with has had those opinions. But I guess the guys at home know best.

Granted there are plenty of frustrations, but those are mainly with regard to limitations in what equipment/hardware you can use.
I'm not disputing your statements. I believe you are telling the truth, I have no reason to believe otherwise. However, I can see frustration on the drivers faces every time they go to Talladega. They don't like that kind of racing. They also very vocal about the tire changes at Bristol a few weeks ago. I suspect they keep their mouths shut because Brian France can put the muzzle on very quickly on anyone that says too much. Kimi, unfortunately, will fit right in with this. Not because he won't speak his mind but because when things aren't what they should be he quietly gets on with his job. I suspect that's what alot of others are doing, they make good money at it so why shoot themselves in the foot?

Jersey Tom
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Tires:

1. Way, way too small a wheel for that size car. Goodyear has wanted to go to a larger package, NASCAR won't go for it ("too expensive for everyone.")

That said, tire durability is usually pretty good.

2. Tires do blow out, sure. Here's the deal. Goodyear says "Don't run less than less than X air pressure, or more than Y camber or Z temp spread." What do teams do? Run less than X, more than Y, and more than Z. Tire pops. Now you tell me, whose bad is that? Ever notice that there are some teams that generally DON'T have tires go down?

That's aside from punctures and air pressure loss of course, which happens in every series. Difference is, NASCAR allows no telemetry during races, so you have no hard evidence if you're about to lose a tire.
Last edited by Jersey Tom on 08 Apr 2011, 18:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Ciro Pabón
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Ray wrote:NASCAR is nothing more than WWE on wheels... NASCAR isn't hard, I don't care how much camber some corners have on entry versus exit. It's a series mired in tech that's 40-50 years behind the average road car. There's zero reason they have only now tested fuel injection. The racing rules change from event to event. They stand behind this facade of good ol' boys when they are shrewd, backstabbing, vicious politicians that would as soon sell their grandmother up a river as lose a popularity contest. They throw parties with country singers and preachers that give invocations before every race, and then they let competitors go out on track and literally try to kill each other (Edwards and Kesolowski to name but one pair). They dress that up as 'rubbin' is racin'. Nothing they do on track translates to any road car. The LS engine wasn't borne from NASCAR racing. The safety of road cars didn't come from NASCAR. The series is more like IROC. Not a single person in NASCAR could identify a car without paint and stickers on them, it's the same damn car. The racing is dictated and won by who can convince Brian France would make him more money. They allow GoodYear to continue to make tires that are guaranteed to spectacularly fail at least once a race. They won't make a car that's lighter weight with more tire and lower CG to help this problem. NASCAR is rigged. NASCAR is a joke, they shouldn't even call it racing. They should call it 'Staged for your entertainment with rigged cautions and crashes when it gets boring' Cup Series. But that doesn't sound as good as a series borne from illegal activity that gives ... in the stands some fake emotional connection because they have a John Deere license plate tag and Remington stickers with camo running board graphics, all on an F-150 that hasn't seen a dirt driveway much less actually used as a truck. ... NASCAR and their fake fans. The announcers won't call ... when they see it, they tow the corporate line and say what their told to avoid risking the fake persona NASCAR tries so desperate to keep. Too bad the death of Dale Earnhardt didn't also kill NASCAR, he would have been better of in sports car racing like he was planning.

I hate NASCAR for all of those reasons and more. They are ... wrapped in a lie... It's a worthless series run by politicians ... . Formula 1 is too, but they don't dress it up with fake smiles and fake Christian values.
Well, yes. That's one way to see it: to watch the first layer. I'm not going to defend the world, if that's what you're asking. The world is what it is.

However, you know, I like to race. I don't race for other people, I do take a car once in a while, gas to spare allowing, I get some laps and the best part is that I do it only for myself.

I simply like tinkering with the tools and the car mechanical thing and I like the wind and I like to concentrate on driving while there is some sun. I like to explain to others how they can get the same feeling of "flow in movement" and I like the beauty of power in your hands through intelligence.

I will never get tired of that, I know already.

Actually, simply, I like to move. To see the things passing by, like in a dream. That's it.

So, when I see where does it takes you, when you see "the NASCAR series", in its entirety, it is easy to forget the people behind.

However, I don't forget that people. I like to watch the drivers drive, no matter what is happening in the stands.

I do not think they, drivers, are fake in the sense you accuse them of be: cynical.

I think that many, many people tries, I think they "dream the whole dream", even if the politics and all the implications of living among other people break their "careers". I like those who try, I see the same urge in me as in them. Even older drivers, you know, the true cynics, must feel "it" once in a while. Once in a while they must feel they are doing all that for themselves, I mean.

It happens in any profession, from lawyers to sculptors, from physicists to racing drivers. There is an ugly and cruel world outside, interested mainly in money. That's true to the last bitter drop.

Many, if not all, people start their profession or art with all the enthusiasm of youth and over time become disenchanted by all the ugliness that they can (easily!) find around ANY human activity.

However, once in a while you find a "colleague", someone that when young had the same illusion as you had. He can understood the nuisances, the effort, the hard work you have put in the things you do, not because you are waiting for someone approval but because they are beautiful. Those things you might have done in your profession have this beauty that only a "trained heart" can understand. With some of those colleagues you can find that spark of enthusiasm and love and devotion to something. You know well they are trying in the same way you do. They are kind of spiritual twins to you.

That's why I like NASCAR. Among all the disillusions of the world, I like to see, year after year, people trying. They know well what they're up against but they try.

If you cannot see this second layer behind the sport, then, the Christian preachers and the commentators of your particular world will drown you.

However, if that's the case, I would add, cynically, that you were drowned from the start. Either you had a soul once or you'll never have one. I used to have one... and I can tell you that you cannot race without one. Soul, that is.

Why? Because in the end, that's all that life gives you: a chance to try and a chance to believe in yourself. This, and only this, the world, the entire world, with Goodyear, France, the "fans" and, in general, all the leeches that you might see around your (are they only that? Leeches?), cannot take away.

I don't know if this apology of the human heart can make people realize that you have to distinguish people who have one (one heart, I mean).

I see many of those hearts at NASCAR and a few at F1, that's why I watch them race. The rest, friends, is glitter. Who wins, who lose, that depends. Who try, on the other hand, is easy to spot if you have tried too: those are well known.

That's why I like, definitely, by all means, a Person, with uppercase P, like Kimi Räikönnen, having the money he wants after so many years, saying, "what the heck, I will try, it must be fun".

I love this kind of people, I cannot avoid to love them.

I will watch him, hopefully, being astonished by the crowd and the smell of the old gas engines, designed in other era, when things were simpler and life was something a bit different, with less money in the basket.

Then, as now, its meaning, the meaning of your life, is something you and only you can find. I will see him race, Mr. Räikkönen, because I have the feeling he will do it for himself, and I tell something: let's see if there is something to learn among all the glitter you mention or if he is racing at NASCAR just for the money (something that could well be).

That's the field where you have to play, no man can avoid that. Finding a meaning in all that, with the hookers and the cheap bastards around, hard as it is, is fun and, let's say it, deep. It can be in racing or you can do it sweeping the streets. It doesn't matter where you find it, I say that there is a second layer, behind all the cynicism, the corporations and the marketing.

That's where, dear Ray, you could easily be, behind or better yet, beyond all that. You have all the knowledge, you have had all those feelings, you have or had all the abilities, you, in a nutshell, have the understanding.

Use it.
Ciro

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Ted68
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Alright, I like NASCAR. I grew up watching it with my father who also was a Formula 1 fan and thought neither Colin Chapman nor Junior Johnson could do any wrong. Though just as Las Vegas was alot more fun back when the mob ran it, corporate stunts, gimmicks and greed have dilluted both Sin City and the racing.

Dilluted, but not killed. Thats why I think both Jersey Tom and Ray are right on their points. The racers are still highly talented drivers who drive out of passion. The teams are filled with some of the best strategists, engineers, engine builders and aerodynamicists in all of motorsports. (watch that statement get flamed here!) And they all show up to race. But as I read a few years ago in a Car And Driver test of a Evernham Dodge, a mechanic was quoted, "If you set out to design a racecar, you wouldn't do it like this."

However as with the rest of sports marketing across the globe, branding, promotion and marketing are now driving the sport more than the competition itself. And corporations like guaranteed results. Bill France, Sr. never went on TV and discussed his plans for "building the franchise," "creating stronger brand identification," or "growing the demographics." Yet I have heard his offspring tout all of these in pre-race interviews. That is why there are much bigger "buttons" than a competion yellow for NASCAR to push to ensure wins.(see atached)

So we are left with talented and passionate drivers and teams running outdated cars alot faster than they should but controlled more and more by corporate bottom lines. But both sides want a good race in the end, so it kind of balances out.

But it ain't like it used to be!

NASCAR Lore: The Call
Conspiracy theorists in NASCAR point to something known as “The Call” as a way to explain the many too-good-to-be-true moments in NASCAR history, such as Dale Earnhardt Jr.’s commanding victory at Daytona in the first race back at the track after his father was killed there.

“The Call,” as detailed in an article in the now-defunct magazine American Thunder, is a theory that NASCAR often allows certain competitors to have an unfair advantage -- a larger engine, say, or a smaller restrictor plate -- in order for them to achieve a poetic victory that will generate a huge amount of media attention.

According to conspiracy theorists, “The Call” comes in three basic categories:

“The Sponsor Call” holds that a driver who shares a corporate sponsor with a particular race or track will thus be allowed to perform well in that race. Examples of this include: Jeff Gordon’s 2004 victory in the Pepsi 400 at Daytona during a race in which he drove a car with a special Pepsi paint scheme. Pepsi promised a free 2-liter bottle of its new Pepsi Edge if Gordon won. Another example is Jimmie Johnson’s repeated success at Lowe’s Motorspeedway in Charlotte behind the wheel of the #48 Lowe’s Chevrolet.

“The Heart Warmer” alleges NASCAR favors particular drivers when a victory would strike a particular emotional chord, such as a return from an injury or some other off-track tragedy. Examples of this include Earnhardt Jr.’s win at Daytona, the victory for Hendrick Motorsports driver Jimmie Johnson the week after a plane crash killed seven members of the Hendrick Motorsports family, and Ricky Craven’s 1998 win in front of his hometown fans at New Hampshire International Raceway after sitting out a dozen races due to a concussion.

“The History Maker” posits that when a driver has a chance to post a particularly historic victory in a prominent setting, NASCAR helps him along. Examples of this include Richard Petty, a huge Republican supporter, scoring his 200th and last career victory during a July 4th race at Daytona in front of President Ronald Reagan, the first time a sitting president had been in attendance for a Cup race. Others point to Dale Earnhardt finally winning the Daytona 500 in 1998 on his 20th attempt.


Coincidence or the Call?

July 3, 2004 - Jeff Gordon comes to Daytona for the Pepsi 400 with a special Pepsi Cola paint scheme and as spokesman for the corporate giant’s latest massive product launch. If Gordon wins the Pepsi 400 in the Pepsi Chevy then fans across America get a free 2-liter bottle of new low-sugar/low-cal Pepsi Edge. He starts from the pole and leads the most laps en route to the victory. In the Pepsi 400 Victory Lane he takes a swig of Pepsi at a track that sells only Pepsi products. Sweet. But was it too sweet?

For the first time in NASCAR history, a sitting U.S. President attends a Winston Cup race at Daytona on July 4, 1984 for the Pepsi 400. The King, Richard Petty, is going for his 200th career win. Petty and Cale Yarborough duke it out throughout the event and cross the finish line door-to-door. The winner is Petty by inches. The third place car of Harry Gant is so far behind that the grandstands are half empty by the time he crosses the start-finish line. After the race it is pointed out that both Petty and Yarborough are staunch Republicans. Eyewitnesses swear they saw Ronald Reagan give "The King" a subtle wink during the congratulatory handshake. Was it a Right Wing conspiracy?

July 4, 2001 - Dale Earnhardt Jr. returned to the Daytona International Speedway for the first time since his father’s death and put on a show never before seen in the age of restrictor plate racing. He passed three and four cars at a time all by himself throughout the night. He destroyed the competition to nab the most emotional win of his still-young career. Was the fix in for Jr.?

link to original article
http://nascarfans.wetpaint.com/page/NAS ... A+The+Call
Heaven: Where the cooks are French, the police are British, the lovers are Greek, the mechanics are German, and it is all organized by the Swiss.

Hell: Where the cooks are British, the police are German, the lovers are Swiss, the mechanics are French, and it is all organized by the Greeks.

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strad
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Boy,,,There are some stong opinions on here from people who obviously know absolutely nothing about NASCAR. :wtf:
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alelanza
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Oh boy, not going to say much but Ray, if you hate nascar you could have just said so and saved us a lot of reading ;) . But i just can't help mentioning this, you say you've been a fan for almost 20 years and one of your gripes is that they use (as per your own words) technology that's 40-50 years behind road cars, and also complain about them hiding behind their christian values... i mean it's like saying you no longer watch porn because you just figured out the breasts aren't real. Though i should point out that while breasts contribute to the final product, we're lucky that the old tech and religious values deter nothing from the racing
You haven't seen the wizard behind the curtain Ray, these things have always been out there for anyone to see and make their minds about.

@Ted, i agree with several things you say. But regarding coincidences.. i don't know, i haven't followed nascar for that long, but we see these things elsewhere i think? LH winning the 08 championship in the last turn of the last lap of the last race yadda yadda. Renault being the first F1 team to use turbos, and having the first turbo car to win an F1 race and doing so with a french driver in a french circuit. And it works backwards, the guy that would turn out to be F1's most prominent french driver winning his first race very shortly after moving to renault in the same french circuit a few years later. And one could go on i guess.
Alejandro L.

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Ray
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alelanza wrote:Oh boy, not going to say much but Ray, if you hate nascar you could have just said so and saved us a lot of reading ;) . But i just can't help mentioning this, you say you've been a fan for almost 20 years and one of your gripes is that they use (as per your own words) technology that's 40-50 years behind road cars, and also complain about them hiding behind their christian values... i mean it's like saying you no longer watch porn because you just figured out the breasts aren't real.
Porn movies aren't trying to present themselves as anything other than what it is. NASCAR pretends to be something it isn't, namely STOCK car racing. It's in the damn acronym. As far as the Christian values things goes, it wasn't a knock against Christians, their behavior, their beliefs, or religion in general. Just the hypocrisy of them having mandatory prayer before every race praying for the safety of everyone there that day, and then allowing competitors to actively and purposefully trying to injure and possibly kill each other. Those situations are encouraged, unpunished and orchestrated by NASCAR. They create dangerous situations by actively standing by and allowing competitors drive each other into the fences. How can they claim to want everyone to be safe and then allow that crap to happen? Now that I see the series for what it is, I'm not allowed to dislike it now? I'm not allowed to hate it for reasons I never really cared about? I'm not allowed to dislike it because it's gotten progressively worse year after year after year? I was a fan, no more.

Ciro,

I too enjoy seeing people strive to be their best, I also like to drive fast and understand the feelings of being connected to an automobile. I used to race karts as a kid and loved the feeling of being on track and trying to catch and beat the guy in front or behind me. NASCAR drivers are out there trying to win, and I respect that. What I don't respect is their complaints falling on the deaf ears of the suits in NASCAR, and then them shutting up, or being told to shut up to save their spots in the pecking order. Either they need to speak their minds and back it up with actions, or just shut up completely. You call me cynical, I call myself brutally honest. Nothing I've said about NASCARs conduct has been false. They've been losing fans and TV hand over fist for a few years and I imagine the fake fights, blatant favoritism, dodgy rule enforcing, and bogus cautions in combination with the stupid race ending shootouts are the reasons. I'm not alone in my dislike of NASCAR and their crap, I'm just the one that will speak my mind.

All my gripes aside, I cannot wait to see Kimi in an overweight car without any tire to provide grip. Even more than that, I can't wait to see someone interview him. His monotone, boring speech is going to be hilarious on TV.

alelanza
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I agree Ray, you're 100% entitled not to like it, i just found it odd as in my view the things you mentioned have always been there, i guess i usually just watch it once the race is on, didn't even know they prayed hehe. But really, that's just a reflection of how people are, not just nascar, in my experience it's fairly common to see someone praying and then backstabbing the next person as soon as they can. Put these old lumps of metal going 200 mph in their hands in a competitive environment and it's just natural to see sparks start to fly between them. And really that's the main reason why people watch, and it's not new at all, it's the good old circus maximus in one of its many modern day forms ;)
Alejandro L.

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Ray
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Speed has a very short segment, and I mean very short, of Kimi driving an unbranded truck at a track in Georgia. Just a quick video of a truck going around and Kimi standing next to it. The cameraman, Bob Varsha, and Leigh Diffey were kicked out by the track manager at the teams request. There's something serious going on apparently, even a private test with a big team there wouldn't get a 'get outta' here notice I don't think. Must have been paid for by Kimi himself so he wouldn't be bothered is my guess. Lord knows he's got the money!

Jersey Tom
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Ray wrote:There's something serious going on apparently, even a private test with a big team there wouldn't get a 'get outta' here notice I don't think.
I doubt it. Had plenty of tests with my previous employer not open to the public or press.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

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Ray
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Jersey Tom wrote:
Ray wrote:There's something serious going on apparently, even a private test with a big team there wouldn't get a 'get outta' here notice I don't think.
I doubt it. Had plenty of tests with my previous employer not open to the public or press.
I guess I should have added that they were told it was okay to be there and film, they did, and then were quickly told to leave.

alelanza
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Alejandro L.

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Ray
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Yup. Both Bob Varsha and Leigh Diffey from SpeedTV were there watching with permission of the team before the track manager (I think) kicked them out without explanation. I can't imagine why they would have been told to leave. It wasn't a part test, they weren't from a rival team, and they weren't collecting data. They were spectating from afar. Strange.