2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[drunkf1fan]

And finally, when it became clear to Mercedes that the team they bought wasn't as good as their 2009 performance had suggested, they methodically started luring away technical staff from McLaren.

I agree on most of that but... the last bit is simply not what happened. Brawn said early on they had a sensible plan of building slowly, which is what Renault saw work so well and have stated they want to do the same.

Your average fan knew that Brawn had a tiny budget and was barely making their way through the season in 2009, everyone knew development for 2010 would be an issue and everyone could see how the second half of the season they were already no where near as effective. There is no way in hell that if the average fan could see this Brawn and Mercedes were unaware this car would suck and the team had to be rebuilt from the ground up. There wasn't a single second that Mercedes went to work and suddenly realise the car wasn't as good as they thought it was going to be.

Lowe has said iirc that the 2013 car was a bigger and more important step than 2014, despite the regulation changes the design philosophy and the massive step forward in performance was made in 2013, 2014 was an evolution of the concept but built on a new set of regulations. Lowe only joined the team in mid 2013. From the get go it was Brawn's intention to build the team from a 100mil to a 250-300mil budget team slowly over 3 years and you can only do that by methodically poaching talent, but from all teams not just Mclaren.

[NL_Fer]

So Mc-Honda ends this year. I still question how it became so bad. It was clear Honda made wrong choice with the Turbo-in-V in 2015, and they already at the end of that season the understood they could never unlock the full potential of MGH-H harvesting with that design. And the 2016 was a compromise.

So already in 2015 McLaren knew Honda would have a correct design in 2017 and they would need the year to redevelop. You cannot blame Honda for not making it work from scratch (the 2017 design). And to extrapolate further, McLaren had experience with the '14 Merc engine, they should have gotten insight in the potential of ERS. Couldn't they have seen the disaster with the Turbo-in-V coming? I mean, it was in their interest also to get a proper engine?

[etusch]

So Mc-Honda ends this year. I still question how it became so bad. It was clear Honda made wrong choice with the Turbo-in-V in 2015, and they already at the end of that season the understood they could never unlock the full potential of MGH-H harvesting with that design. And the 2016 was a compromise.

So already in 2015 McLaren knew Honda would have a correct design in 2017 and they would need the year to redevelop. You cannot blame Honda for not making it work from scratch (the 2017 design). And to extrapolate further, McLaren had experience with the '14 Merc engine, they should have gotten insight in the potential of ERS. Couldn't they have seen the disaster with the Turbo-in-V coming? I mean, it was in their interest also to get a proper engine?

Honda's current situation is fault of mclaren. They just prefer to take success credit and load all fault to honda. But that is not true. Everybody talking about "Honda after 3 years". But 2 years of that 3 years wasted because of mclaren. We have to start counting Honda from this season.

[mclaren111]

Guess we will not see too much development on chassis side unless applicable for next year.

Hope ALL focus shifts to 2018 immediately

[JonoNic]

Guess we will not see too much development on chassis side unless applicable for next year.

Hope ALL focus shifts to 2018 immediately

Yet everyone wants Honda to bring all their updates this year. Both divorcees should just focus on next season.

[Andres125sx]

If that driver is also key to many sponsors, absolutely.

McLaren seems to be going a long way in an attempt to keep their star driver happy... Indy500 for example?

Keeping your star driver happy and provide him with team principal status are too different things Phil

You reply to one, but ignored the other. See above for the part you missed.

I didn´t miss anything, did you miss biggest sponsor for McLaren is Honda?

[McL-H]

I can only hope Honda will finally make their concept work, and have a monster of an engine next year. It would serve McLaren right, for this enormeous stupid short-sighted decision. I have been a fan of McLaren for 10 years.. same time as I'm an F1 fan. But it ends here. Throwing away a company legend like trash last year was already something I hated the owners for.The way they talked trash about Honda was also something that was not done imo (I hated RBR for doing the same to Renault). And now this awful short sighted decision of going with horribly weak Renault, settling for P4-P5.. strengthening Red Bull with a works deal.. horrible decision. This is no longer the team I became a fan off and I refuse to support them any longer.
An insult to a team member has been removed. There is no need for such a remark.

[marmer]

Guess we will not see too much development on chassis side unless applicable for next year.

Hope ALL focus shifts to 2018 immediately

Yet everyone wants Honda to bring all their updates this year. Both divorcees should just focus on next season.

Actually it would help honda more than McLaren to bring updates this year they would get valuable on track running testing out new bits before they then put them in the Toro rosso. McLaren would just end of with engine penalties

[proteus]

Mclarens looking strong after 3 practices, as it looks so far they can get into Q3, to 7th position at best. The problem is that there is high chance something will break again.

[proteus]

I can only hope Honda will finally make their concept work, and have a monster of an engine next year. It would serve McLaren right, for this enormeous stupid short-sighted decision. I have been a fan of McLaren for 10 years.. same time as I'm an F1 fan. But it ends here. Throwing away a company legend like trash last year was already something I hated the owners for. Installing this fat yank was another decision I could hardly cope with. The way they talked trash about Honda was also something that was not done imo (I hated RBR for doing the same to Renault). And now this awful short sighted decision of going with horribly weak Renault, settling for P4-P5.. strengthening Red Bull with a works deal.. horrible decision. This is no longer the team I became a fan off and I refuse to support them any longer.

[...] They did what they thought they need to do. The fiasko they got from Honda was a final straw this year when they failed to provide jet again. Shareholders demanded something to be done and they lost the patience with Honda. Shareholders are the ones who are expecting to get profit out of their investments, and with Honda they lost that. Even with cash that Honda gave to the team, they were still losing money and before they lost their shareholders they had to make a move. Is the Renault the right decision? It is the weakest out of three, but right now still light years infront of Honda. Settling with a leading midfield position right now for next season and two more is a strategic decision and a smart one. If they manage to collect 100 - 250 points per year than they made it right. In 2021 new engines are coming and they are probably planning to step up from that season onwards.

[RS200E]

So Mc-Honda ends this year. I still question how it became so bad. It was clear Honda made wrong choice with the Turbo-in-V in 2015, and they already at the end of that season the understood they could never unlock the full potential of MGH-H harvesting with that design. And the 2016 was a compromise.

So already in 2015 McLaren knew Honda would have a correct design in 2017 and they would need the year to redevelop. You cannot blame Honda for not making it work from scratch (the 2017 design). And to extrapolate further, McLaren had experience with the '14 Merc engine, they should have gotten insight in the potential of ERS. Couldn't they have seen the disaster with the Turbo-in-V coming? I mean, it was in their interest also to get a proper engine?

Honda's current situation is fault of mclaren. They just prefer to take success credit and load all fault to honda. But that is not true. Everybody talking about "Honda after 3 years". But 2 years of that 3 years wasted because of mclaren. We have to start counting Honda from this season.

Ridiculous.

[ZakB]

To my eyes this is Williams II, Mclaren from greatness to be another costumer team that if lucky will win a contractors Wordchampionship that haven't done since1998 and probably will not win again until 2022? or beyond. Hopefully I will eat my words but that's how I see it.

Mclaren and Williams have one major difference as I see it. The financial clout of their owners. Williams' owners are nowhere near as wealthy as Mclaren's, even with Mr Stroll pumping some money in.

Of course on the other hand, Williams aren't running an automotive company that is direct competition for some of the manufacturers that might be looking to join the sport.

But I don't see Mclaren becoming Williams Mk2, they have very different attitudes to racing - the fact that Mclaren are even considering building their own PU from 2021 tells you that much!!

This thing of building their PU by 2021 it is what it buggers me most, Mclaren had a deal that brought money, partnership and exclusivity. If they have the capability of doing their own engine why they didn't help with the development of Honda engine?

If that's true it means Mclaten never had intention to fulfill Honda contract and do from 2021 their own stuff.

And yep Mclaren might be richier and more resourceful than Williams (which make his situation even more catastrophic than Williams) and still haven't win a condtactors championship since 1998 and a drivers since 2008, wich was a car evolved from documents stolen by Ferrari.

As i said to my eyes to brake an exclusive lucrative with 4th engine on the grid right now (starting to show some potential) to become a costumer team with 3rd engine on the grid and with more time in development that Honda. Just to do a quick fix for sponsors!? On those terms don't think will win in near future at least 2022 or beyond as I say. if that the case that's make them Williams Mk2

It's a customer team with a works engine, some people in here seem to forget that. BP can also develop fuel for Renault and McLaren, which is a big advantage. I see everyone talking about their last title, but just look at the end of 2012, they had the best chassis on the grid. This year their chassis is fine again, so they have a couple of bad years, it happens every now and then because it simply takes time (years) when a new team has been put in place. There have also been some terrible decisions by Whitmarsh, like developing a completely new car (that sucked) in the last year (2013) before a rule change. It doesn't make McLaren the new Williams or Force India, just look at their amazing facilities in Woking.

[...]

[drunkf1fan]

So Mc-Honda ends this year. I still question how it became so bad. It was clear Honda made wrong choice with the Turbo-in-V in 2015, and they already at the end of that season the understood they could never unlock the full potential of MGH-H harvesting with that design. And the 2016 was a compromise.

So already in 2015 McLaren knew Honda would have a correct design in 2017 and they would need the year to redevelop. You cannot blame Honda for not making it work from scratch (the 2017 design). And to extrapolate further, McLaren had experience with the '14 Merc engine, they should have gotten insight in the potential of ERS. Couldn't they have seen the disaster with the Turbo-in-V coming? I mean, it was in their interest also to get a proper engine?

The timeline is slightly off, unfortunately the turbo in the v was the wrong choice, but it was also an engine with no where near enough testing as it was only a 1.5 year development cycle when Mercedes spent over double that and the other two about double the time so a more complex design and smaller being done in half the time, very very stupid idea. Both made it a pretty much impossible task but one in which Honda should have said a flat no to, Honda agreed so they are also responsible with the person who made that decision for Honda himself almost completely at fault.

But then Honda got more stupid, when 2015 sucked they doubled down and insisted the compressor in the V could work, so a project for a new concept car for 2017 didn't start early in 2015 alongside trying to fix that engine as it absolutely had to. It seems when the first guy was replaced the new guy in ~April last year started off following the previous guys upgrade plan then it seems from quotes and statements that the new concept was only started around June or so last year. So we had a massively rushed engine from Honda in 2015, then they doubled down on their bad design and now we have really an even more rushed engine to start off 2017 hence it was such a regression in reliability. Rushing really complex engineering is just flat out stupid and Honda keep making exceptionally bad decisions from the start.

I think basically the doubling down on the compressor in the V was a classic pride situation, they wanted to prove their engineering so even though it was a bad decision they wanted to prove that engine could work even if it was really slow and to a degree they did do that in 2016. It wasn't even that reliable and certainly not fast but was hugely improved compared to 2017. but proving that they could make that engine work better rather than start work on a better engine was a monumentally costly mistake.

[PhillipM]

I really do think McLaren have shot themselves in the foot here, they've gone through 3 years of pain to develop with the Honda and they're now dumping it for an engine that's just as unreliable and handing Honda and all that work over to one of their championship contenders in the form of Red Bull, who'll be able to pick and choose the best engine if the Honda comes good, with no downside of having to run it until then.
Now they're back to playing second-fiddle to a works team. Exactly where they were 4 years ago.
Even worse, if the Red Bull main team announce a switch to Honda at some point....they'll know for certain in that minute that they're back on the worst unit on the grid.

[Xero]

I really do think McLaren have shot themselves in the foot here, they've gone through 3 years of pain to develop with the Honda and they're now dumping it for an engine that's just as unreliable and handing Honda and all that work over to one of their championship contenders in the form of Red Bull, who'll be able to pick and choose the best engine if the Honda comes good, with no downside of having to run it until then.
Now they're back to playing second-fiddle to a works team. Exactly where they were 4 years ago.
Even worse, if the Red Bull main team announce a switch to Honda at some point....they'll know for certain in that minute that they're back on the worst unit on the grid.

Except RB won't get to pick and choose. Renault have forced them to go Honda for 2019, whether or not the PU is competitive.

I get fanboys picking at eachother over this, but really, this deal is best for both sides! You can talk about morals and loyalties all you want, but they aren't worth anything in motorsport. It's all about competition and results, simple as that. And if you want to motivate from a stale situation, you make changes. That goes for all walks of life.