Engine Unfreeze

[MOWOG]

Writing rules is an art. The more you try to cover every possible eventuality, the more you open yourself up to leaving out something important.

There was a huge debate about the Bill of Rights after the US Constitution was promulgated. Many claimed it was necessary to set out precisely what rights were to be protected while others insisted that by putting some things on the list left the impression that anything not itemized was, by impication, NOT protected.

Experience has shown that the latter group was correct.

The devil is always in the details. All the sweeping general pronouncements about wanting to control costs or promote close competition go out the window once a coterie of lawyers trained to find every loophole - real or imagined - are let loose on the finished product.

I am reasonably confident that one or more large manufacturers are keen to see how this all plays out for Honda before deciding whether or not to join the F1 circus. If it turns out that "legacy" engine suppliers are to be given preferential treatment, look for those on the outside looking in decide to look elsewhere.

[Richard]

I am reasonably confident that one or more large manufacturers are keen to see how this all plays out for Honda before deciding whether or not to join the F1 circus. If it turns out that "legacy" engine suppliers are to be given preferential treatment, look for those on the outside looking in decide to look elsewhere.

Indeed. Imagine VAG/BMW/JLR considering a 2017 or 2018 entry. The regs only allow them enough tokens to change a washer in their second year. So they'd run a completely undeveloped PU against teams with years of experience.

Now imagine CVC wanting to float their shares and finally get an exit strategy 5 years later than first planned. They'll love a major works entry to boost the sport's profile (and share price). They'll also want to guard against a major team leaving because even the big teams (or their title sponsor) leave once in a while.

[KeiKo403]

Not sure if it's already been brought up (be surprised if not) but these PU's are scarily complex and technical! Lets go back when Marussia, Caterham and HRT joined the fray. That Cosworth engine didn't have KERS, it was a straight up 2.4l V8, not (in today's terms) advanced space age technology which you'd expect from F1 when we look at some of the exotic materials and technologies used.

Cosworth did a pretty bad job, I know we can only benchmark their performance with the likes of these Teams but even Williams took a Cosworth deal and couldn't wait to get out.

Honda could turn up with an excellent specimen of engineering but then again, Cosworth are a reputable engine developer and if they can't get a 2.4 V8 right when it wasn't 'new' technology why should we (FIA) expect Honda to be able to perform as well as the established PU's on the grid when they are so much more technologically advanced?

[Andres125sx]

Yes, common sense would say Honda have no tokens to spend this year, but where in the regulations does it say that?

The technical regulations state that you're allowed to edit 48% of your engine that was homologated for 2014. Honda didn't homologate an engine for 2014, so they fall under the new engine regulations and get no tokens.

Why?

Where is that specified?

If they don´t have an homologated engine they´re free to homologate the 2015 unit they want because there´s no previous unit, so they´re not modifying anything, they´re building from scratch


Now the problem is, they (both Honda and the rest) can homologate different engines for 2015 seasson? What I don´t get is the reason Whiting think the rest can do it but Honda cannot

[diffuser]

The more I think about this the uglier it gets. I started to think to myself .." ok well the same rules are gonna apply to Honda in 2016 as those that apply to everyone else in 2015". That is 48% change at any time next year while the others getting 24% change..... or something like that...

What happens if Honda Matches Merc's PU this year? I realize it's a big if ..yet it is in the realm of possibilities.

Everyone will scream bloody murder. I can hear it now .."Honda has the most power PU and they're allowed to make double perf changes???"

You think they'll stand for that ?

[f1316]

The more I think about this the uglier it gets. I started to think to myself .." ok well the same rules are gonna apply to Honda in 2016 as those that apply to everyone else in 2015". That is 48% change at any time next year while the others getting 24% change..... or something like that...

What happens if Honda Matches Merc's PU this year? I realize it's a big if ..yet it is in the realm of possibilities.

Everyone will scream bloody murder. I can hear it now .."Honda has the most power PU and they're allowed to make double perf changes???"

You think they'll stand for that ?

I'm pretty sure that's not the case though.

This year they're held to the same rules as the others had in 2014 but next year they'll have to do the same as the others will next year. So it's like they skip a year and that's why it seems to disincentiveize new engine suppliers.

They should either just let them develop and to hell with costs or say you can have a max of x horsepower.

[pob]

The tokens are listed by calendar year, not by date from first homologation, so Honda and any other new manufacturers get the same token levels as others in 2016+.

Now the problem is, they (both Honda and the rest) can homologate different engines for 2015 seasson? What I don´t get is the reason Whiting think the rest can do it but Honda cannot

That's what I was trying to say, but probably putting it across badly.

[siskue2005]

The fair rule for Honda would be homologate their engine at feb 28 , 2015 and then allow them the 32 tokens in season development like other teams

[hollus]

That would give Honda the benefit of hindsight. If 32 tokens represent 48% of the PU and Ferrari has 70% wrong, they'd be stuck with 22% wrong parts, assuming that all 32 tokens work right.
The rule interpretation probably handicaps Honda, but there is also a definite risk of favoring Honda by making it too fair.

[bauc]

The main problem here is FIA or their lack of ability and knowledge to enforce fair play among all teams. They ''allowed'' a loophole in the rules, and now the manufactures (3 out of 4) are allowed to update their engines trough they year while Honda isn't. One can argue if that is fair or not but the point I'm making here is that Honda entered the sport under the assumption that the rules were clear (no development during the year - updates allowed only on safety and costs cutting grounds) and under the assumption that the playing ground will be leveled for all teams & manufactures. Now we have Honda on the back foot for 2015 & 2016 and the latest news are that from 2017 we will see new engine formula with 1000bhp etc.....meaning we are about to see more changes which will only add to the chaos that FIA created at the first place while totally dismissing the opinions of the fans.

[captainmorgan]

This kind of underhandedness is what makes F1 retarded. Because it isn't formula "one", but instead 2 different formulas applied selectively. Not to mention that no 2nd homologation date is a brand new interpretation/non-enforcement that makes a joke out of rules stability.

I was glad that 2014 got rid of another year of Red Bull dominance. I was glad 2005 tire rules ended the Ferrari parades and their unceasing tedium. It will be sickening if Mercedes win again on technical factors, but even more sickening if Ferrari/Renault cars win while Honda was kept leashed to 2014 rules.

[PlatinumZealot]

Pardon me, gentle folks, but where in the rules does it say you can upgrade at different times throughout the year? Aren't you allowed to implement your 32 tokens and and homologate only once? In my mind it means that you can't run an upgraded engine if you havent homologated it so you have to run a 2014 until then. I do not see the racing advantage in ferrari and renault running teir weakling 2014 engines for the opening races while mercedes and honda romp away into the sunset. I think it would be wise to implement their upgrades before the first race. I see no arvantage of waiting late.

[Richard]

PZ - The most eloquent explanation in these pages has been:

Appendix IV explains that a homologated power unit is one of 3 things.

1.a A PU delivered to the FIA before 28-2-14
1.b A PU delivered after that date modified under the tokens system
1.c A PU delivered after that date (either new or modified) with modifications not covered by the token system

The granting of homologation to a PU under 1.c is conditional on the FIA in consultation with the other manufacturers deciding that it is "fair and equitable" to allow it to compete.

The 2014 engine will always be homologated under 1.a until a new power unit is homologated.

So a PU is only homolgated when first accepted for racing, which for 3 teams was back in Feb 2014. After that it is modified with tokens. The tokens can be used at any time in the calendar year (because the FIA forgot to name a date).

As you note, there is a trade off between using all the tokens at once, or holding some back for a mid season update. By time they get to Monza they'll have another 6 months of development waiting to be bolted on.

[Andres125sx]

That would give Honda the benefit of hindsight. If 32 tokens represent 48% of the PU and Ferrari has 70% wrong, they'd be stuck with 22% wrong parts, assuming that all 32 tokens work right.
The rule interpretation probably handicaps Honda, but there is also a definite risk of favoring Honda by making it too fair.

Disagree, if Ferrari has 70% wrong that´s their problem, not any advantage for Honda

The same could happen the other way around, what if Honda has 70% wrong and they can modify nothing? Ferrari at least can do some mods, something honda is not allowed

And Ferrari know their PU is reliable after a full seasson testing, something Honda don´t know either


I see it as one of the most unfair rules I´ve ever seen at any competition, different rules inside same competition

[chenpei24730]

That would give Honda the benefit of hindsight. If 32 tokens represent 48% of the PU and Ferrari has 70% wrong, they'd be stuck with 22% wrong parts, assuming that all 32 tokens work right.
The rule interpretation probably handicaps Honda, but there is also a definite risk of favoring Honda by making it too fair.

Disagree, if Ferrari has 70% wrong that´s their problem, not any advantage for Honda

The same could happen the other way around, what if Honda has 70% wrong and they can modify nothing? Ferrari at least can do some mods, something honda is not allowed

And Ferrari know their PU is reliable after a full seasson testing, something Honda don´t know either


I see it as one of the most unfair rules I´ve ever seen at any competition, different rules inside same competition

Yes, totally unfair.
And, for me, I think FIA just don't care how Honda feel because it's an Asian company and F1 is European sport. (maybe I see the whole thing from a biased perspect)