2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[Vettel165]

max will be unmatched in mexico as always. the Honda pu has 0.4 tenth on competitors at high altitude so max will win and put lando championship dreams to bed.

.
The Turbo advantage was years ago. That's long over now. So the Honda PU is a few years the same as others.

that advantage is still their mercedes never solved their high-altitude problem .max blitz's the field in Austria in quali for example. the honda marginally have best ers and that will be amplified these weekend.max has never really been beaten at these track. the only time is when he was penalized for not obeying yellow flags due to bottas.

Also we can count Spa as quite high altitude track with nearly 500 m above the sea level. And there he dominated Q3 this year. A shame they have taken a penalty there and not in Monza.

[Paa]

How do you see Mexico ?

I mean... we can't even see clearly within a weekend. Performance levels change so much from day to day, sometimes even from session to session. At this point I can imagine any scenario from great success to absolute failure in Mexico, and I'm not even sure which one is more likely.

[avantman]

How do you see Mexico ?

I mean... we can't even see clearly within a weekend. Performance levels change so much from day to day, sometimes even from session to session. At this point I can imagine any scenario from great success to absolute failure in Mexico, and I'm not even sure which one is more likely.

Mclaren and [upgraded]Ferrari were the outright best cars in every of the past 4 race weekends. It was close enough between them for either team to win any of those 4 races. Execution mostly and tiny little details as they says dictated the outcome. Red bull was 3rd best except for Monza. So nothing has changed, and nothing changes, let alone quickly.

[Sergej]

[venkyhere]

As the laps tick by :
a) the car is expected to gain performance from loss of fuel mass
b) the car is expected to lose performance as reducing fuel mass means the ride height increases and downforce reduces
c) the car is expected to lose performance from tyre degradation/graining-phase etc

That's not how it works.
(a) correct
(b) not correct, in fact the opposite
(c) correct

Fuel mass is only 100kg tops out of 800kg from the mass of the car plus all the downforce which is at least comparable to the weight of the car at high speed.

Over and over you see cars going faster through corners with less fuel onboard, they slide less due to less centrifugal force/inertia (Q=mv and m is decreasing) and, and since they go faster they generate more downforce through the corner which results in them being also lower on the ground.

Hmm... I understand my folly.
b) the car is expected to gain performance as reducing fuel mass means lower lateral inertia allowing faster cornering speeds, resulting in more downforce (several times more than the weight of fuel lost), reducing ride height, which in turn increases downforce, which in turn increases grip further.
Which in turn means, this extent of this 'b' effect is really going to be governed by suspension stiffness. And even suspension stiffness isn't constant, either, right ? it's progressive, ie, will depend on how much the torsion springs are already twisted (pre loaded) ?


So 'performance loss' (if it occurs) even in ground effect era (where ride height is super sensitive) still is coming only from reducing tyre grip. There are races where cars have no performance loss at all (actually increasing performance) when tyre grip doesn't reduce much.

Now the golden question :
why does tyre 'deg' as the laps go ?

AFAIK graining is from rubber shearing off the contact surface due to temporary adhesion with tarmac and resulting ripping off of surface of the tyre (reducing circumference), exposing 'underneath' layers that constitute the tread.

Curious to know what exactly (in basic physics) constitutes 'degradation' which in turn reduces grip. I have a vague idea that sustained hot temperature (even if stable) results in compromising elasticity of the rubber as a whole. Also, without a minimum temperature, the rubber doesn't have enough elasticity as well. Thus the 'temp window'. But not sure if this is the idea behind 'deg'.

[Waz]

The persistence by Sky that Lando is actually a title rival hasn't played out in reality. The gap in points increased after Miami. Lando has had the car to close up for 14 rounds now. Max is easily champion even just by bringing it home in the top 5.

The points per race needed to overhaul him is going to jump significantly now after every round that Lando doesn't meet the minimum, which currently is win every race with Max no higher than 4th.

[avantman]

I would still expect understeering issues...I do not think the kerbs were the biggest issue, it was unpredictive understeer. It just came together in a way that 90° corners were mostly accompanied by kerbs, so it was not easy to distinguish.

Kerb riding was massive issue in Mexico last year, it's a matter of fact. Red bull were losing time even to Alpha Tauri in the 1st chicane consistently (which obviously have nothing to do with understeer), because they couldn't attack those high kerbs as hard. That's why by the way Daniel was so close in qualifying. It's normally less of an issue in race mode but definitely will hamper qualifying performance.

[Paa]

How do you see Mexico ?

I mean... we can't even see clearly within a weekend. Performance levels change so much from day to day, sometimes even from session to session. At this point I can imagine any scenario from great success to absolute failure in Mexico, and I'm not even sure which one is more likely.

Mclaren and [upgraded]Ferrari were the outright best cars in every of the past 4 race weekends. It was close enough between them for either team to win any of those 4 races. Execution mostly and tiny little details as they says dictated the outcome. Red bull was 3rd best except for Monza. So nothing has changed, and nothing changes, let alone quickly.

Then why don't you write the approx pecking order for qualy and race now? And we can check back after the weekend to see how simple it was?

[avantman]

Then why don't you write the approx pecking order for qualy and race now? And we can check back after the weekend to see how simple it was?

I've been writing enough, question is, were you paying attention?
Sep 24.
" Nothing is winnable on pace and merit with 3rd fastest car at best. Seriously, what wonderland we are still living in? It's not April '24. "

"Our "mood" doesn't affect cars performance, and your positivity won't make Mclaren car any slower. And they will bring upgrades as well. No upgrade in the world can close such massive gap on race pace and tire deg between the two cars. I've been watching this show long enough to know that. Doens't necessarily mean it's impossible for Max to win a race or two till the end of the year. Look, with slow underperfroming Piastri and underperforming (which is chronical) whole Ferrari team, it only takes for Lando to get a puncture, reliability issue or say another unlucky yellow flag in Q1, and Max might be in a position to win. He was in that position even last Sunday in Singapore. But that wasn't on car pace and merit, Red bull was distant 3rd fastest car.
So, no, mood isn't all that negative. If he did it and closed the championship in his favor in 2021 having very similar technical deficit, he can do it again this year."

Yes, you are clearly not paying enough attention, because I was even talking with you:
avantman wrote: ↑
24 Sep 2024, 15:23
No upgrade in the world can close such massive gap on race pace and tire deg between the two cars. I've been watching this show long enough to know that.

So you started watching around this summer? Because you could have said that exact same words about McLaren catching Red Bull around March.
Btw, I mostly agree with you, but still there is a subtle difference between "impossible" and "very unlikely".

[Paa]

Wow that's a lot of text about things I never ever said anywhere, but I take this that you don't have any idea of the pecking order for next qualy/race.

[avantman]

Wow that's a lot of text about things I never ever said anywhere, but I take this that you don't have any idea of the pecking order for next qualy/race.

I said a month ago, Red bull has the 3rd best car and this won't change till the end of the season (unless Mercedes pit their sh*t together which makes RBR 4th best), with or without Austin hyped-up upgrades. I also wrote after the Sprint quali on Saturday that COTA Sprint might be the last race [sort of] Max might win this year. He won it few hours later. When so many members were hyping up these results, I saw that both Mclaren and Ferrari were still faster cars and they will change their setup for Sunday, there won't be a chance for Max to win the Grand prix. This turned out to be true as well. Everyone could see red bull even driven by Max was unquestionably distant 3rd best car having again far more tire deg (front mostly of course, which is a weakness all season) on both compounds.
I also said a month ago, if Max has to win another grand prix this year, Mexico city GP will be the most probable one due to variety of factors. One being his individual strength in low grip conditions in general and in Mexico city layout in particular. Other ones being relative unimportance of grid slot on the first row, rear limited track (which is better for red bull car), very low overall tire deg and not easy overtaking.

Mclaren and Ferrari biggest strength will be somewhat mitigated on Sunday, Red bull biggest weakenss might be not as prominent.
Pecking order is the same and it will be the same, - Mclaren and Ferrari are fundamentally faster cars and they will stay the faster cars in Mexico, unless their drivers mess up badly and compromise their whole weekend in quali or say at the start (remember Norris out in Q1? Remember Sainz crashing in Singapore? I cannot guarantee you any of this happen.) But I can see Max winning it still, if he gets some help from under-performing Mclaren, Ferrari and their drivers. (the only reason why he won Sprint at COTA). It only takes for Max to get to the lead somehow, drive his race in clear air, then he might be able to hang on to it, like he did against Lando at COTA.

[Wouter]

F1 Helmut Marko on Sergio Perez at Red Bull Racing

GP Blog.
During F1's break period between Singapore and Austin, a rumour emerged suggesting Sergio Perez was going to announce his retirement at the Mexican Grand Prix weekend. The Mexican quickly shut down these rumours with a social media post. Ahead of this weekend's race in Mexico, Red Bull's external advisor commented on those rumours while acknowledging Liam Lawson's performance in Austin.

Marko commented on the rumour. "It is a rumour. He himself says there is no truth behind it," Marko told the German branch of Sky Sports, continuing with a striking statement. "We will see, but he needs to improve his performance."
Once again in Austin, Perez finished far behind Verstappen. He finished behind George Russell who started in the pitlane and finished last out of the top four teams (aside from Hamilton, who retired).

What did Marko think to Lawson's performance in Austin?

Perez is contracted to drive for Red Bull during the 2025 Formula 1 season, but there is doubt whether he will actually be Verstappen's teammate next year. Red Bull replaced Daniel Ricciardo with Liam Lawson for the rest of the season and immediately made an impression. The New Zealander started at the back of the grid and scored points.

"A great debut. That was already clear in Q1, where he drove the third-fastest time. He was in control the whole time and had great overtaking manoeuvres. You have to put the youngsters in the car and then it works. He is definitely a man for the future," Marko said.

[Wouter]

max will be unmatched in mexico as always. the Honda pu has 0.4 tenth on competitors at high altitude so max will win and put lando championship dreams to bed.

.
The Turbo advantage was years ago. That's long over now. So the Honda PU is a few years the same as others.

.
that advantage is still their
mercedes never solved their high-altitude problem .max blitz's the field in Austria in quali for example. the honda marginally have best ers and that will be amplified these weekend.max has never really been beaten at these track. the only time is when he was penalized for not obeying yellow flags due to bottas.

.
No, that advantage isn't still there! I asked @Wazari a few years ago and he explaned why it wasn't there anymore.
BTW, @Wazari wasn't on the forum since last April. I hope everything is ok with him.

[Vanja #66]

Both Red Bull and McLaren appeared weaker in the race than they truly were. At the start, Max had to take a lot from his tyres to cover Sainz (who also took a lot from his Mediums) and this compromised his first stint a bit. Then on Hards, seeing he'll have Norris on fresher Hards in the final few laps, I imagine he backed down and saved them to avoid going off the cliff while fighting. As for McLaren, I guess seeing how the Sprint went with suffering on Mediums and dropping to P4 for Lando they decided to drop the pace early on and extend the stint to have as much pace as possible to fight Max later on.

At worst, I think Max was 0.1s behind Leclerc in realistic pace, while realistically I think if he got the lead in T1 he would have won if he and GP wanted to win and not simply cover Norris

[Vettel165]

AMuS got some information on that part - its another setup change they made due to the high deg on the rear tires in the sprint. Therefore they made some adjustments (overreaction according to Dr. Marko) to reduce the load on the rear tires, which led to understeer. They tried the front wing adjustment during the stop, but it didnt help to fix it. It got even worse on hards.

Source: https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -mclaren//

It feels like they still need to find the ultimate answer regarding stability and drive ability - but they are heading into the right direction.
Looking forward to Mexico with more time to dial in and it will be interesting to see our efficiency with the high altitude up there.