Engine Unfreeze

[frosty125]

Pardon me, gentle folks, but where in the rules does it say you can upgrade at different times throughout the year? Aren't you allowed to implement your 32 tokens and and homologate only once? In my mind it means that you can't run an upgraded engine if you havent homologated it so you have to run a 2014 until then. I do not see the racing advantage in ferrari and renault running teir weakling 2014 engines for the opening races while mercedes and honda romp away into the sunset. I think it would be wise to implement their upgrades before the first race. I see no arvantage of waiting late.

I just read the latest (08/01/15) technical and sporting regulations relating to power unit homologation and it is clear that while you can only have a single homologated one engine at once there is no limit on the number of homologations in a year.

"b) A power unit delivered to the FIA after 28 February 2014 which has been modified in
accordance with the Annual F1 Power Unit Homologation table in Appendix 4 to the F1
Technical Regulations.
Once homologated in accordance with a) or b) above, and except as permitted by (c)
below, no changes may be made to the design or construction of the homologated
parts for the duration of the homologation period laid out in Article 28.5 of the F1
Sporting Regulations."

the period laid out in 28.5 of Sporting regulations is 2014-2020

So the only other way the rules could be interpreted is that you are not allowed to make any changes full stop.

[EDIT] After thinking this through surely that would allow Honda to as well.

[Further EDIT]

Apendix 4 is the token chart

[GoranF1]

I am sorry if someone already mention it,but my question is;is Honda allowed to use 5 engines if they need to obey 2014 engine homologation dates and rules!?

[pob]

No, Honda are allowed 4 engines like everyone else.

[McG]

Looking back to when Honda decided to enter F1 for 2015, was that the earliest they could enter? Were McLaren contracted to Mercedes engines in 2014 or did McLaren get an extension for that year only?

I'm thinking the FIA might be thinking that Honda could easily have entered in 2014 but chose to sit it out. If Honda can prove they weren't ready for 2014 they should be allowed to develop their engine the same as everyone else. But I don't think they can prove it. they probably didn't see this decision coming and were maybe a bit too open about their plans?

Either way the FIA continue to disgust me.

[Facts Only]

Looking back to when Honda decided to enter F1 for 2015, was that the earliest they could enter? Were McLaren contracted to Mercedes engines in 2014 or did McLaren get an extension?

Mercedes were obliged the provide engines to Mclaren until the end of the 2014 season if Mclaren wanted them.

[tranquility2k4]

I've just been having a bit of a debate with BBC's Andrew Benson on twitter. I have stated that if Honda are also allowed to have 32 tokens worth of updates during 2015 then they will have a big advantage. This is because they will introduce their first engine iteration at the end of Februrary, whilst Renault and Ferrari will likely have to start with a 2014 spec engine. The latter two manufacturers will then use their 32 tokens and at the soonest point possible (say the Spanish GP) introduce and homologate their 2015 engine. Meanwhile, Honda will then get until mid or even later in the season to use 32 tokens and put together another homologated engine. Due to this it is likely that Honda may start with a better engine than 2014 Renault or Ferrari and then also have a better engine than their new 2015 engine once they've applied their 32 tokens.

Andrew Benson has stated that the 32 tokens can be introduced through the season. Whereas, this article, seems to differ: http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/01/a ... ules-mean/

The way I understand it, is that you can only use a 2014 or a 2015 engine at one time, so you cannot introduce a 2015 engine at the start of the season with say 20 tokens used, then use a further 12 tokens and keep updating it? I thought teams would have their 2015 engine frozen, once it is introduced, therefore the only change is that they can wait longer to introduce it (and use their tokens).

Can someone please clarify for me... What a mess the FIA have created!

Update: The latest is that after having told Andrew Benson that James Allen's article contradicts what he is saying, he has responded by saying: "that is not correct, trust me". So now I've told him to inform his BBC colleague that his published article is apparently factually incorrect? Hm.

[frosty125]

I've just been having a bit of a debate with BBC's Andrew Benson on twitter. I have stated that if Honda are also allowed to have 32 tokens worth of updates during 2015 then they will have a big advantage. This is because they will introduce their first engine iteration at the end of Februrary, whilst Renault and Ferrari will likely have to start with a 2014 spec engine. The latter two manufacturers will then use their 32 tokens and at the soonest point possible (say the Spanish GP) introduce and homologate their 2015 engine. Meanwhile, Honda will then get until mid or even later in the season to use 32 tokens and put together another homologated engine. Due to this it is likely that Honda may start with a better engine than 2014 Renault or Ferrari and then also have a better engine than their new 2015 engine once they've applied their 32 tokens.

Andrew Benson has stated that the 32 tokens can be introduced through the season. Whereas, this article, seems to differ: http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/01/a ... ules-mean/

The way I understand it, is that you can only use a 2014 or a 2015 engine at one time, so you cannot introduce a 2015 engine at the start of the season with say 20 tokens used, then use a further 12 tokens and keep updating it? I thought teams would have their 2015 engine frozen, once it is introduced, therefore the only change is that they can wait longer to introduce it (and use their tokens).

Can someone please clarify for me... What a mess the FIA have created!

Update: The latest is that after having told Andrew Benson that James Allen's article contradicts what he is saying, he has responded by saying: "that is not correct, trust me". So now I've told him to inform his BBC colleague that his published article is apparently factually incorrect? Hm.

Look at my earlier post regarding multiple homologation after I read the rules. FYI part of my professional background is working on national legislation.

[Hail22]

Somewhat positive news out of Europe Re; Honda for the 2015 in season development submission;

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/30815234


Andrew Bensons power unit breakdown:

Engine development: The breakdown

Engine development is restricted to a specified number of 'tokens' each season.

These tokens are ascribed to parts of the engine based on their influence on performance.

From 2014 to 2015 - the second year of the new turbo hybrid formula - Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari can change 32 tokens out of the 66 that comprise the entire engine.

For 2016, they can change 25 tokens; for 2017, 20; for 2018 15 and three each for 2019 and 2020.

They can apply their 32 tokens at any point during the season, following a rule clarification which was introduced when it became clear no date had been defined in the rules for competitors to homologate their engines for 2015.

Honda has no tokens to develop its engine during this season and in 2016, its second year, it will be allowed to change only 25 tokens. So it will never get the chance to change 32 tokens from one year to the next, as its rivals have.

Last year, in their first year with the new turbo hybrid engines, Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault were restricted to supplying five engines per driver. This year, it is four.

Honda can supply only four engines to the McLaren drivers this year, even though it is its first year.

[adrianjordan]

I personally think the bigger issue here, as has been said by others, is the message this sends out to any other manufacturer that might consider entering F1 in the future.

As things stand, what F1 is effectively saying is that anyone who might be thinking of coming in as an engine supplier in the future will be at a disadvantage compared to the existing suppliers...

[skoop]

the biggest problem here regarding new pu manufactures is that with every year it becomes more unatractive to join. to solve this the need to get rid of the hard dates. don't let them use only 20 tokens in 2017, but let them use only 20 tokens in their fourth season. so everybody has the same chance. the problem with this would be, that a new entering manufacturer might get an advantage, becouse he can copy the most succesfull concept. but that's how f1 works, ins't it?
in my opinion the best solution would be: in season development with a budget cap (don't ask me how to enforce this).

[Moose]

the biggest problem here regarding new pu manufactures is that with every year it becomes more unatractive to join. to solve this the need to get rid of the hard dates. don't let them use only 20 tokens in 2017, but let them use only 20 tokens in their fourth season. so everybody has the same chance. the problem with this would be, that a new entering manufacturer might get an advantage, becouse he can copy the most succesfull concept. but that's how f1 works, ins't it?
in my opinion the best solution would be: in season development with a budget cap (don't ask me how to enforce this).

To me the solution is simple, and mentioned by someone else in this thread.

Allow engine development, enforce a cap on the cost of the engines, and require that they're sold at the same price to each team, and are the same engine...

That way the big teams can all try to out-compete each other, we get awesome engines, and an awesome development battle, and the little teams don't get screwed over and left out of competition.

[flmkane]

I would also add that all engine software and mappings be required to be open source. No team would get screwed over by secret mappings being provided only to works teams.

[Richard]

I'm not sure about that one. Software is one of the few places where teams can gain competitive advantage now that the car & PU general arrangement is locked to a common spec. It would be like saying that teams have to pass on all their CFD analysis.

[siskue2005]

Still there is no clarity about how the 32 tokens can be introduced
Should they introduce all 32 tokens at once or could they introduce it in parts throughout the season ?
If for example a token is introduced can they change it again ?
And mind you there is only 4 engines per driver, so only 4 chances to introduce a token

[f1316]

Still there is no clarity about how the 32 tokens can be introduced
Should they introduce all 32 tokens at once or could they introduce it in parts throughout the season ?
If for example a token is introduced can they change it again ?
And mind you there is only 4 engines per driver, so only 4 chances to introduce a token

I now think it's quite clear that you can keep making changes throughout the season (up to 32 token limit and with a four engine limit) as that's now being reported everywhere.

Took me ages to get clarity, so wouldn't be surprised if somehow there's a further clarification, but that's what seems to be the case as far as I can see.