McLaren's Lando Norris beat all odds and took victory at the Miami Grand Prix, his first win in Formula One after a few near misses and lots of second place finishes. Max Verstappen finished second as Charles Leclerc completed the podium for Ferrari.
There are absolutely loads of examples from the past couple years where drivers were penalized for pushing others off the track. The FIA even said they wanted to start policing this more, and it seems they still do(more than they used to at least), it's just wildly inconsistent.
This should have been a slam dunk penalty for Piastri.
There are absolutely loads of examples from the past couple years where drivers were penalized for pushing others off the track. The FIA even said they wanted to start policing this more, and it seems they still do(more than they used to at least), it's just wildly inconsistent.
This should have been a slam dunk penalty for Piastri.
So do you want more inconsistent stewarding by making sure every penalty is based on case by case feels instead of rules? The rule in this case is that the overtaking driver on the outside has to be ahead at the apex of the corner, not along side. The rule might suck, but it is the rule.
Good explanation here about the changes after 2021 -
"When considering what is a ‘significant portion’, for an overtaking on the outside of a corner, among
the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the
stewards will consider if the overtaking car is ahead of the other car from the apex of the corner."
If you'd like a view of the incident again, this video at 0:07-0:08, Carlos is alongside, not ahead -
If you aren't ahead at the apex, you aren't entitled to space in today's F1. I personally think the rule should change like a lot of people do. But if you're demanding they penalize a driver for following the rules, then I would argue that you're barking up the wrong tree and should be complaining about the rule, not the decision to apply it.
Last edited by kentonspr on 10 May 2024, 15:25, edited 2 times in total.
There are absolutely loads of examples from the past couple years where drivers were penalized for pushing others off the track. The FIA even said they wanted to start policing this more, and it seems they still do(more than they used to at least), it's just wildly inconsistent.
This should have been a slam dunk penalty for Piastri.
So do you want more inconsistent stewarding by making sure every penalty is based on case by case feels instead of rules? The rule in this case is that the overtaking driver on the outside has to be ahead at the apex of the corner, not along side. The rule might suck, but it is the rule.
Good explanation here about the changes after 2021 -
"When considering what is a ‘significant portion’, for an overtaking on the outside of a corner, among
the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the
stewards will consider if the overtaking car is ahead of the other car from the apex of the corner."
If you'd like a view of the incident again, this video at 0:07-0:08, Carlos is alongside, not ahead -
If you aren't ahead at the apex, you aren't entitled to space in today's F1. I personally think the rule should change like a lot of people do. But if you're demanding they penalize a driver for following the rules, then I would argue that you're barking up the wrong tree and should be complaining about the rule, not the decision to apply it.
To suggest that Sainz didn't have a 'significant portion' of his car alongside at that point is just pure lies. You cant reasonably argue it. Their front wheels were almost aligned at that point.
Letting Piastri do what he did just means nobody will be able to pass on the outside, ever. At least not if a driver is smart to just push somebody off instead of allowing them to get alongside. You can literally STOP them from getting alongside by just running them off, as Piastri did. It's complete nonsense. It's a full on "If you dont back off, we'll both crash" kind of move that has no place in a fair and competitive sport. And it ruins the racing.
There are absolutely loads of examples from the past couple years where drivers were penalized for pushing others off the track. The FIA even said they wanted to start policing this more, and it seems they still do(more than they used to at least), it's just wildly inconsistent.
This should have been a slam dunk penalty for Piastri.
So do you want more inconsistent stewarding by making sure every penalty is based on case by case feels instead of rules? The rule in this case is that the overtaking driver on the outside has to be ahead at the apex of the corner, not along side. The rule might suck, but it is the rule.
Good explanation here about the changes after 2021 -
"When considering what is a ‘significant portion’, for an overtaking on the outside of a corner, among
the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the
stewards will consider if the overtaking car is ahead of the other car from the apex of the corner."
If you'd like a view of the incident again, this video at 0:07-0:08, Carlos is alongside, not ahead -
If you aren't ahead at the apex, you aren't entitled to space in today's F1. I personally think the rule should change like a lot of people do. But if you're demanding they penalize a driver for following the rules, then I would argue that you're barking up the wrong tree and should be complaining about the rule, not the decision to apply it.
To suggest that Sainz didn't have a 'significant portion' of his car alongside at that point is just pure lies. You cant reasonably argue it. Their front wheels were almost aligned at that point.
Letting Piastri do what he did just means nobody will be able to pass on the outside, ever. At least not if a driver is smart to just push somebody off instead of allowing them to get alongside. You can literally STOP them from getting alongside by just running them off, as Piastri did. It's complete nonsense. It's a full on "If you dont back off, we'll both crash" kind of move that has no place in a fair and competitive sport. And it ruins the racing.
There's nothing to argue, the driving guidelines are clear on this. Sainz needed to be ahead from the apex to be entitled to space and he wasn't. Piastri did what he needed to do.
There are absolutely loads of examples from the past couple years where drivers were penalized for pushing others off the track. The FIA even said they wanted to start policing this more, and it seems they still do(more than they used to at least), it's just wildly inconsistent.
This should have been a slam dunk penalty for Piastri.
So do you want more inconsistent stewarding by making sure every penalty is based on case by case feels instead of rules? The rule in this case is that the overtaking driver on the outside has to be ahead at the apex of the corner, not along side. The rule might suck, but it is the rule.
Good explanation here about the changes after 2021 -
"When considering what is a ‘significant portion’, for an overtaking on the outside of a corner, among
the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the
stewards will consider if the overtaking car is ahead of the other car from the apex of the corner."
If you'd like a view of the incident again, this video at 0:07-0:08, Carlos is alongside, not ahead -
If you aren't ahead at the apex, you aren't entitled to space in today's F1. I personally think the rule should change like a lot of people do. But if you're demanding they penalize a driver for following the rules, then I would argue that you're barking up the wrong tree and should be complaining about the rule, not the decision to apply it.
To suggest that Sainz didn't have a 'significant portion' of his car alongside at that point is just pure lies. You cant reasonably argue it. Their front wheels were almost aligned at that point.
Letting Piastri do what he did just means nobody will be able to pass on the outside, ever. At least not if a driver is smart to just push somebody off instead of allowing them to get alongside. You can literally STOP them from getting alongside by just running them off, as Piastri did. It's complete nonsense. It's a full on "If you dont back off, we'll both crash" kind of move that has no place in a fair and competitive sport. And it ruins the racing.
There’s no point in discussing it here.
When people think these 2 situations are different, they aren’t interested in any argument.
There's nothing to argue, the driving guidelines are clear on this. Sainz needed to be ahead from the apex to be entitled to space and he wasn't. Piastri did what he needed to do.
Significantly alongside is not 'ahead'. Considering whether they're ahead or not is not the same as saying that's the only guideline when 'significantly alongside' is the main guideline. And if being ahead is what they're going to rule by, then it's an absolute joke and completely worthless, basically legally allowing people to run others off track as early as possible in a corner.
There's nothing to argue, the driving guidelines are clear on this. Sainz needed to be ahead from the apex to be entitled to space and he wasn't. Piastri did what he needed to do.
Significantly alongside is not 'ahead'. Considering whether they're ahead or not is not the same as saying that's the only guideline when 'significantly alongside' is the main guideline. And if being ahead is what they're going to rule by, then it's an absolute joke and completely worthless, basically legally allowing people to run others off track as early as possible in a corner.
Why would anybody defend that kind of racing?
It is what it is, it is 1000 % better than what we had during 2019 through to 2021, depending on your team and name every thing was just considered hard racing, even driving over the top of a car or going sight seeing during the Brazillian GP.
There's nothing to argue, the driving guidelines are clear on this. Sainz needed to be ahead from the apex to be entitled to space and he wasn't. Piastri did what he needed to do.
Significantly alongside is not 'ahead'. Considering whether they're ahead or not is not the same as saying that's the only guideline when 'significantly alongside' is the main guideline. And if being ahead is what they're going to rule by, then it's an absolute joke and completely worthless, basically legally allowing people to run others off track as early as possible in a corner.
Why would anybody defend that kind of racing?
I think you are confusing "defending that kind of racing" with understanding that even bad rules are still rules. I would like it if they changed the rule. I would prefer racing that required space on the outside. I think F1 got it wrong with those driving guidelines. But to say a driver should be penalized for doing what the driving standards from the FIA allow, is something I can't get on board with.
It also seems that you only read the first part of the paragraph in the guidelines that states a "significant portion" needs to be along side -
"When considering what is a ‘significant portion’, for an overtaking on the outside of a corner, among
the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the
stewards will consider if the overtaking car is ahead of the other car from the apex of the corner."
In my opinion, the only way to have consistent stewarding in F1 is to enforce the rules as written. No further, no less. That brings other problems with it as "discretion" is no longer part of it. But I don't see how you get out of it otherwise. The rules could also be better written to leave less room for ambiguity that would require said discretion.
There's nothing to argue, the driving guidelines are clear on this. Sainz needed to be ahead from the apex to be entitled to space and he wasn't. Piastri did what he needed to do.
Significantly alongside is not 'ahead'. Considering whether they're ahead or not is not the same as saying that's the only guideline when 'significantly alongside' is the main guideline. And if being ahead is what they're going to rule by, then it's an absolute joke and completely worthless, basically legally allowing people to run others off track as early as possible in a corner.
Why would anybody defend that kind of racing?
I think you are confusing "defending that kind of racing" with understanding that even bad rules are still rules. I would like it if they changed the rule. I would prefer racing that required space on the outside. I think F1 got it wrong with those driving guidelines. But to say a driver should be penalized for doing what the driving standards from the FIA allow, is something I can't get on board with.
It also seems that you only read the first part of the paragraph in the guidelines that states a "significant portion" needs to be along side -
"When considering what is a ‘significant portion’, for an overtaking on the outside of a corner, among
the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the
stewards will consider if the overtaking car is ahead of the other car from the apex of the corner."
In my opinion, the only way to have consistent stewarding in F1 is to enforce the rules as written. No further, no less. That brings other problems with it as "discretion" is no longer part of it. But I don't see how you get out of it otherwise. The rules could also be better written to leave less room for ambiguity that would require said discretion.
I guess we just skip over the “among the other factors” part. Or ignore that Piastri missed the apex so he execute what more educated people would call, a dive bomb that allowed his wing to be in front in the vicinity of the apex, given neither car made the apex.
I guess we just skip over the “among the other factors” part. Or ignore that Piastri missed the apex so he execute what more educated people would call, a dive bomb that allowed his wing to be in front in the vicinity of the apex, given neither car made the apex.
We've been over this a few pages back already.... Piastri is not the overtaking driver - Sainz is. As such, Piastri is not required to hit the apex. He just had to remain on track, and give room if required to (which he wasn't in this situation). But beyond that he can choose any racing line he wants.
Forgive me if i sound grumpy here, but seriously don't get why this has to be pointed out constantly. It's not a hard concept to grasp that you have to differentiate who the overtaking driver is, and most previous Stewards-decisions from 2022 and onwards aligns with this. The only Stewards-decision that I remember that doesn't align with this was Russell penalty for collision with Perez at Austria 2022 lap 1, where Perez was the overtaking driver. But that one is probably down to that they think Russell didn't leave Perez enough space (I'd argue he did, but only just - it was a tight squeeze), because unlike Sainz, Perez was certainly ahead, and thus entitled to space in that situation.
I guess we just skip over the “among the other factors” part. Or ignore that Piastri missed the apex so he execute what more educated people would call, a dive bomb that allowed his wing to be in front in the vicinity of the apex, given neither car made the apex.
We've been over this a few pages back already.... Piastri is not the overtaking driver - Sainz is. As such, Piastri is not required to hit the apex. He just had to remain on track, and give room if required to (which he wasn't in this situation). But beyond that he can choose any racing line he wants.
Forgive me if i sound grumpy here, but seriously don't get why this has to be pointed out constantly. It's not a hard concept to grasp that you have to differentiate who the overtaking driver is, and most previous Stewards-decisions from 2022 and onwards aligns with this. The only Stewards-decision that I remember that doesn't align with this was Russell penalty for collision with Perez at Austria 2022 lap 1, where Perez was the overtaking driver. But that one is probably down to that they think Russell didn't leave Perez enough space (I'd argue he did, but only just - it was a tight squeeze), because unlike Sainz, Perez was certainly ahead, and thus entitled to space in that situation.
Sainz was ahead of Piastri before the corner. Had there been a DRS detection there Piastri would have gotten DRS.
There's nothing to argue, the driving guidelines are clear on this. Sainz needed to be ahead from the apex to be entitled to space and he wasn't. Piastri did what he needed to do.
Significantly alongside is not 'ahead'. Considering whether they're ahead or not is not the same as saying that's the only guideline when 'significantly alongside' is the main guideline. And if being ahead is what they're going to rule by, then it's an absolute joke and completely worthless, basically legally allowing people to run others off track as early as possible in a corner.
Why would anybody defend that kind of racing?
Read the guidelines You are denying things which are clearly outlined.
“In order for a car being overtaken to be required to give sufficient room to an overtaking car, the
overtaking car needs to have a significant portion of the car alongside the car being overtaken and
the overtaking manoeuvre must be done in a safe and controlled manner, while enabling the car to
clearly remain within the limits of the track.
When considering what is a ‘significant portion’, for an overtaking on the outside of a corner, among
the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the
stewards will consider if the overtaking car is ahead of the other car from the apex of the corner.
The car being overtaken must be capable of making the corner while remaining within the limits of
the track.”
They literally wrote it down so that this argument would be avoided, yet here we are on F1T, the supposedly more sophisticated F1 forum, having to constantly argue over these types of scenarios when the rule states what they look for. Say you don't like the rule, don't deny its existence to conform to your narrative.
BTW, you had Leclerc overtaking Hamilton in the same corner in a perfect example of how it works when you are "ahead from the apex", Hamilton would not have been allowed to squeeze him there.
Sainz was ahead of Piastri before the corner. Had there been a DRS detection there Piastri would have gotten DRS.
That still has nothing to do with who is considered the overtaking driver. You can get ahead in many ways - including braking late. The DRS-detection is an entirely separate system, and has nothing to do with overtaking. Who hits the detection point first can be down to even things like corner entry style (late braking vs early braking), depending on where the point is placed. That still doesn't change who the overtaking driver is.
For an overtake to be considered completed, it seems to be one of two things must apply, judging by previous stewards-decisions:
1) Overtaking car get completely ahead of the car being overtaken
2) Both cars have exited a corner safely.
Sainz getting his nose ahead of Piastri doesn't change that he's still the overtaking driver, until both drivers have exited the corner safely. And he wasn't ahead from the apex, as the rule states he has to be.
Beyond that, we're running into circular arguments here.
People also forget the shape of the corner determines who is closer to the apex. Sometimes they only look on the straight run leading up to the turn and believe that the attacking driver is alongside, when it truth it's too late by then as the defending driver has already braked and started turning towards the apex. Coming up alongside Piastri when he already is entering the turn is too late to expect to have any rights for space.
Sainz should have been alongside at entry to braking zone to gain any sympathy.
The onboard cameras tend to play tricks on the eyes when it comes to the corner entry after a straight. By the time Sainz camera show him "beside" Piastri, the corner had long been entered into by Piastri. Sainz was in no mans land.
or going sight seeing during the Brazillian GP.
You are denying things which are clearly outlined.