Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[fenix4life]

Looks like this year will be year for testing 2018 PU , and since McLaren doesn't have extra 100-150 mil € to pay engines of some other manufacture it's doomed to stay with Honda.

Well if the contract and project of Mclaren-Honda is 10 years and they spend 5 years to get right the engine (something Honda said from the beginning) and they have the change of wining the other 5 years as constructors I don't think it would be so bad outcome. The problem is Alonso, everyone wants him to win before retires but the project so far I don't see it as disaster or catastrophic yet. So let's see how they develop the engine this year without tokens and see if that chasis is as good they state.

McLaren and Mercedes was also not done in a year if we want to use this as a comparison.
The mp4/9 (peugeot) was a joke. Contract terminated after one year. I remember Hakinnen blowing his enging in the start grid
The mp4/10, mp4/11 mp4/12 was Mercedes however a lot of reliability issues. The mp3/13 however was a winner. Took them 4 year to achieve some good results

Is the Honda a Peugeot mp4/9 (a joke) or a m4/12 (fast but not reliable)

[godlameroso]

Neither powerful or reliable. And looks like the power will arrive after the reliability and not the other way around.

[flexcon]

Honda engine sound

So these are various clips I took of the Honda engine ( McLaren car har har har ) around the track during week 2 of testing.

Still has that mazing cylinder shut off sound. however, that weird resonating sound across gear changes happening a lot. Well worth a listen to the audio, got some sweet sound recordings of her on track - could be worthwhile for analysis.

Also got a slo mo as it passed and you can actually here the firing on the engine!

P.S it's in 1080P so make sure to select that as it selects 360p default

[godlameroso]

What ever happened to glenntws?

Call me a tinfoil nutter, but I always thought he was secretly a Honda employee.

[toraabe]

If you are listening after the gearshift, the engine begins to oscillate. This can be traced back to the drive-train. This is causing extreme stress on the engine in which can lead to breakdown... This can normally partially be avoided e by proper ECU programming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_oscillator The noise between gearshift seems to be the wastegate that is opening
,

Honda engine sound

So these are various clips I took of the Honda engine ( McLaren car har har har ) around the track during week 2 of testing.

Still has that mazing cylinder shut off sound. however, that weird resonating sound across gear changes happening a lot. Well worth a listen to the audio, got some sweet sound recordings of her on track - could be worthwhile for analysis.

Also got a slo mo as it passed and you can actually here the firing on the engine!

P.S it's in 1080P so make sure to select that as it selects 360p default

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPQ3_Un ... e=youtu.be

[ncassi22]

From Muramasa over at autosport....

http://forums.autosport.com/topic/20540 ... ii/page-62

Test 1 summary article


dotted parts for Hasegawa quotes

https://sportiva.shu.../___split___f1/
2017.03.08


oil tank issue (on Day 1) timeline


- noticed the symptom on filming day
- during the Sunday night, Honda re-analyzed the baffle and took countermeasures and modified it at the venue
- it took long for analysis/redesign work, so they couldn't finish the countermeasure task in time for the beginning of Monday morning session
- so for the morning they decided to try sending the car out with unmodified tank
- after all it turned out that it was difficult to make running at racing speed
- therefore they decided to wait for the completion of the modification work (that's why they only made 1 lap in the morning)
- in the garage they were readying the PU with the modified tank being attached
- as posted before in another article, it took longer than expected to change PU because it's all new car all new PU

(info in the article)



(on oil tank issue) What's crucial about oil tank is internal config and baffle design, so if there is imbalance in there, you encounter problem that oil get stuck in one place/side of the tank by the effect of lateral G and longitudinal G and cannot be pumped up properly. It's something that can be dealt with by slight modifications, it's really not a big deal. It's something that can happen to any engines occasionally and it's nothing fundamental, but you have to dismantle PU from the car in order to fix it, so it takes long time for it unfortunately...

Oil tank is not conventional vertical cube type but Ω shaped to avoid the compressor which is mounted at the center of ICE. Therefore much consideration was put into the design but there was trivial mistake at terminal intake port. (info in the article)




(on the trouble at lap 29 in the morning of Day 2 of Test 1)

(Stoffel) reported that the car lost power suddenly on the way back to the pit. There was no sign of trouble on the telemetry, but Stoffel reported "lost power suddenly", so we examined the data and found out the power was actually dropping so we had him return to pit. Engine itself was running, but some cylinders were dead.

After the trouble we didn't do anything special like lowering output etc and continued to run as normal, but there was no issue. That the trouble has occurred is a headache, but it's only the PU in question that has broken down so quickly, so it's natural to consider that something irregular has happened.







Matt Morris quote: This time's testing we conducted basic checking of the car, there is no parts that's showing unexpected behaviors, and we are able to increase the performance in fast corners. We could confirm that we are now emancipated from the issues we suffered from last year. Well, it was a slow start, and we merely made only one step tho.



We are able to complete the scheduled programs roughly, and make some recovery. We are not yet able to make durability verification like long runs, but we were able to consume testing plans like checking the car's basics and settings quite a lot. To be honest, I think everyone is making noise a bit too much just because we had some troubles at 2nd day.

We had an option to go for minor modification of last year's PU, but in such way it's impossible to step up to the next stage, so we are going into this season by revising everything from scratch, the consequence of which is this current situation. It's inevitable to suffer troubles having chosen to go offensive rather than defensive, so I take it positively.

we stumbled and fell down, and got injured in knees, but not sustained serious injury. We are not thinking like seriously injured at all. Just because something unfortunate happened in 2nd day, I dont think it's a big deal. The fact that we stumbled is shame, we are feeling bad for being unable to run as well, but it's no such thing that will make or break the entire season. What's truly concerning and crucial is how the level of our competitiveness will be as we progress the setup from now on.

(which one is more concerning/burdensome, reliability or lack of performance?) Of course performance, by tremendous margin. Regarding reliability you can overcome before too long. Still, you must not be disappointed at this stage already, and it's too early to say anything conclusive about result yet. I'm surprised by Renault's performance, but they may be light on fuel, may be under weight, etc, we can do something like that if we want to but we are concentrating on testing items so not going for lap time, so. Needless to say it would be encouraging to get P1 on the chart, but anyways we must work harder and harder.





















==========================
==========================

>>> Test 2 <<<

========================
Hasegawa quote for dotted parts
========================





DAY 1

http://f1sokuho.mopi...no=106683&tt=-1
2017年3月8日

- cause of trouble: electrical (according to "Honda")
- Spec is the same as last week's, but some modifications applied for the components that had trouble last week (info in the article)




========================



DAY 2

http://f1sokuho.mopi...no=106719&tt=-1
http://f1sokuho.mopi...no=106732&tt=-1
2017年3月9日



It is a fact that we have not been able to reach the original target power due to encountering various issues on dyno before entering the winter test. Regarding that, Alonso expressed his disappointment to us, and it is extremely shame for us Honda as well that we were not able to achieve our own target.



(on the PU introduced on Day 2 of Test 2)

Originally we were supposed to designate this PU as the spec to be introduced for Melbourne.

- Supposed to be used from Day 1 of Test 2, but its arrival to Barcelona got delayed because they were applying tentative measures to cope with the trouble that has occurred on Day 2 of Test 1. (info in the article)





Regarding the electrical issue (of Day 1 of Test 2), insulation malfunction has occurred, and what's suspected to be ground fault has happened. Current F1 cars are equipped with energy recovery systems hence high voltage electric current is flowing in it, so we have both cathode and anode isolated completely from the car. Ground fault happens if either electrode makes contact with the ground, but something like that can hardly happen with current F1 cars.

However, even if high voltage connectors are wrapped with insulation materials such as rubber, it comes to be the state of ground fault if it touches the ground. This time's trouble, it's not that it was completely short circuited, but it was merely giving a warning signal because the insulation resistance figure went below a certain threshold.

This sort of trouble can happen by slightest insulation malfunction, so it's not so difficult to repair actually, but finding the spot of malfunction is much more painstaking task, so we decided to replace the power unit as a whole.



At this very moment, we are undecided as to whether to use this PU at Melbourne or not. From now on, suppose the cause of the trouble that happened on Day 2 of Test 1 be identified, we will use this spec (introduced on Day 2 of test 2) as a foundation and do whatever it takes in order to improve the reliability until the last minute before Melbourne.







==========================



DAY 3

--------------------------------------
at about lunch time of Day 3:
http://www.bbc.com/s...rmula1/39197097
F1 journalist Dan Knutson in Barcelona: Yusuke Hasegawa, Honda’s Head of F1 Project & Executive Chief Engineer, has flown to Japan where he will be at Honda’s F1 factory in Sakura to personally oversee the work on the much-needed updates to the power unit.
-------------------------------------


dotted parts for Hasegawa quote
(Hasegawa, who should be in airport or on a plane to Japan by that time, was somehow giving interview at Circuit de Catalunya at the end of Day 3)

http://f1sokuho.mopi...no=106757&tt=-1
2017年3月10日



Regarding driveability, we must work on it and improve/mature more and more. Drivers were reporting dissatisfaction especially on the behavior of shift change, saying the shift-up is too harsh.



At the end of the morning session we have encountered electrical related issues and stopped on track. We couldn't identify the cause, but it's got restored itself quickly so we sent the car out on track again, but it's come to a halt once again. After that we decided to exchange the whole electronics-related components.

(restarted running at 4pm, then at the end of the afternoon session it stopped again by electric shut down) It happened in Brazil FP session last year, the power shut down and restored by itself immediately, so Stoffel were able to come back to the pit on his own. However, it was only 30min to go til session flag, so we finished the day of testing at that point.

Although we suffered from troubles, we were able to make aero evaluations and performance verification, so in terms of understanding the new car at least it was good testing session for us.



Driveability is extremely important. Improve the driveability and extract bit more power, then the car itself should come to decent level.







============================



Day 4

dotted parts for Hasegawa quotes
(Hasegawa, who should've been arriving at Sakura by then, was somehow still at Circuit de Catalunya giving interview at the end of Day 4 as well)

http://f1sokuho.mopi...no=106786&tt=-1
2017年3月11日


(first stoppage at 11:14, another stoppage at 11:52)

Electric related trouble has occurred again. Completely the same issue as yesterday's. I reckon that there was problem in the components that were left un-exchanged from yesterday.



During Day 3 (of Test 2), Honda changed ES. Trouble still persisted, so over night Honda decided to change the electronics related components of PU (info in the article)

We exchanged everything (of electrical related on PU side) to the components with proven reliability record that have been used already and encountered no issues in Day 1 and Day 2.

(Yet shutdown occurred again)

(on shut down issue during the run) It stopped immediately after hitting the bottom of the kerb at T9, so I guess that impact has to do with it.

(the context seems to be that reporters mentioned and asked if those electric issues were down to chassis side not PU side) Rather than the whereabouts of responsibility for the cause of the stoppage, it's shame that we as a team has lost the track time. But, I'd like to think positively, it's good that it didn't occur during GP weekend.



Alonso's time of 1m21.389sec wasn't that too bad if you think about when he set the time. It's not so common to set fastest time in the (early) evening. Had we not encountered the harness issues and been able to make attack lap around noon, perhaps we could've set better laptime.
But we are feeling enormous pressure (due to the current situation where they have only Sauber behind them)

[diffuser]

They don't make it sound that bad do they ?

[ollandos]

i have a similar shock down issues with my seat leon ....it was EGR valve honda have more potendial but little time

[Redragon]

The problem is Alonso, everyone wants him to win before retires but the project so far I don't see it as disaster or catastrophic yet. So let's see how they develop the engine this year without tokens and see if that chasis is as good they state.

Honda promised ALO that they was going to have a top engine in 2017. Also, Honda wanted ALO, they paid (and still paying) ALO and they support ALO. The problem is not ALO, the problem is McLaren Honda, chassis and engine.

I haven't said that Alo is the problem, only his age as if Mclaren and Honda don't do a winner car he will not be able to win before retirenment. But Mclaren as Honda haven't reach their half period of the contract, 4th out of 10 years, this is a 10 years project.

[63l8qrrfy6]

There seem to be rumors regarding both head stiffness issues as well as valve temperature problems.

Interestingly the engineers usually have to balance the valve seat insert support stiffness against the cooling requirements. For example large water jacket cavities close to the valve seat mean lower stiffness. Moving the water jacket away from the valve not only increases the stiffness of the entire combustion face but also decreases heat rejection to the coolant meaning smaller radiators are required. (and maybe better combustion efficiency ? don't know, I'm not a performance guy)

Anyway, the point is - it's easy to see how excessive seat distortion (low order, high amplitude) can lead to high contact pressure on the valve face that in conjunction with high temperatures and an aggressive closing ramp can lead to a valve that is not very happy.

Normally I would have said that in pursuit of performance Honda have neglected reliability but so far the numbers thrown around do not sound encouraging in that respect either. I wish them all the best and I am rooting for them because I am convinced that they are by far the hardest-working team. Designing an F1 engine from scratch without outside help from EU consultancies (see cosworth, ricardo, mahle, avl, fev, iav etc) and without pinching dozens of engineers with decades of experience in F1 engines is a very difficult task that the general public can not fully comprehend.

[mattia.bobbo]

There seem to be rumors regarding both head stiffness issues as well as valve temperature problems.

Interestingly the engineers usually have to balance the valve seat insert support stiffness against the cooling requirements. For example large water jacket cavities close to the valve seat mean lower stiffness. Moving the water jacket away from the valve not only increases the stiffness of the entire combustion face but also decreases heat rejection to the coolant meaning smaller radiators are required. (and maybe better combustion efficiency ? don't know, I'm not a performance guy)

Anyway, the point is - it's easy to see how excessive seat distortion (low order, high amplitude) can lead to high contact pressure on the valve face that in conjunction with high temperatures and an aggressive closing ramp can lead to a valve that is not very happy.

Normally I would have said that in pursuit of performance Honda have neglected reliability but so far the numbers thrown around do not sound encouraging in that respect either. I wish them all the best and I am rooting for them because I am convinced that they are by far the hardest-working team. Designing an F1 engine from scratch without outside help from EU consultancies (see cosworth, ricardo, mahle, avl, fev, iav etc) and without pinching dozens of engineers with decades of experience in F1 engines is a very difficult task that the general public can not fully comprehend.

You can be right, but why on heart on all the interviews Honda's engineer focus only on the electrical side of the problems? Stoffel engine lost power->they changed the electrica parts. More trouble-> change the whole engine. Nowhere they say clearly that they are having mechanical faults.. They changed electronics many times and still they didn't understand what the problem was. These rumors can be true, but why they didn't talk about the mechanical side? At this point they've told the whole world about their electrical issues, they would have told also the mechanical issues..

[63l8qrrfy6]

In the spirit of the forum I prefer to speculate based on very limited and highly inaccurate information.

I find an obscure insulation issue to be a boring subject and prefer to ignore it completely.

[YUL-F1]

Honda engine sound

So these are various clips I took of the Honda engine ( McLaren car har har har ) around the track during week 2 of testing.

Still has that mazing cylinder shut off sound. however, that weird resonating sound across gear changes happening a lot. Well worth a listen to the audio, got some sweet sound recordings of her on track - could be worthwhile for analysis.

Also got a slo mo as it passed and you can actually here the firing on the engine!

P.S it's in 1080P so make sure to select that as it selects 360p default

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPQ3_Un ... e=youtu.be

The often occurring momentary hesitation in exhaust note on upshifts is very suspicious I believe. Strange that it doesn't happen on all upshifts.

Is it possible that detonation is happening with exhaust valves not completely closed and they are being closed mid detonation? That is the first thing that came to my mind but I am no expert. Is it possible intake valves are so hot they are creating premature detonation?

Also the sounds the engine made on its famous failure in the last sector of the track where Stoffel came to a complete stop in front of the fans was also making very rough exhaust sounds but it didn't sound like a serious combustion failure. More like irregular exhaust valve control if that is possible. Again I am no expert.

[godlameroso]

If anything will benefit McLaren Honda is that Melbourne is one of the most fuel thirsty circuits on the calendar. The increased drag may have a penalty on fuel economy, since the McLaren chassis is designed with efficiency first, it could work out for them. Although the Red Bull is also very aero efficient. Also, the reduced power of the Honda may be garbage in qualifying but may actually work out in the race as that will also allow more efficiency, in short their pace in Melbourne may not be too terrible.

http://en.f1i.com/news/261796-teams-fea ... 017-2.html

[godlameroso]

the best news for honda and mclaren coming from there

http://prntscr.com/ejn6jg

I'd take that weather forecast with a grain of salt, although it is looking like a moist weekend. My experience with weather says not to bother making predictions more than two weeks in advance.

Last year I predicted 15 days before the race that conditions would be similar to 2012 for the Brazilian GP, I was wrong, it was worse.