2025 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

[clownfish]

It's massively insulting. It's like if you were a software engineer and some guy who makes coffee is telling you that you're doing it all wrong. Completely disrespects the expertise involved at all levels in an F1 team.

That depends entirely on exactly what Hamilton suggested, doesn't it? If he's suggested some adjustments to their autoclaves, that's very different to suggesting that some extra people are present at post-race debriefs or adding some features to the DIL that Mercedes has and Ferrari doesn't.

If we take your example, say the barista has previously worked for one of the software companies rivals and has just started working at this place. It's not arrogant for him to say "my old employer gave all the employees a free coffee and cake on Friday mornings, it was great because it got all the people from different departments chatting to each other for half an hour".

Mr Barista doesn't need to know what linter the devs are running or what source control system they use to be able to offer a suggestion that is potentially worthwhile.

[Badger]

In general I think the driver is vastly overstated in the development process, only because we as fans have an attachment to them. The job of the driver in terms of development is to provide reliable feedback about the limitations of the car on track, and to have a practical understanding of how to set up the car. Beyond that development is basically all engineering.

How can a driver come up with constructive criticism on the allocation of resources and personnel when they don't have a proper understanding on what those resources and personnel are actually doing? It just becomes a guessing game. F1 engineering is high science done by the academically gifted, F1 driving is repetitive grunt work done by people who barely graduated high school. There's little common understanding there, just common goals.

[sucof]

As always I think the truth is in the middle.
While drivers do not contribute to design the car, their opinion about the last car does affect the design process and the engineers greatly.
So both side is equally important, even if their work and work amount differs greatly. And of course there must be huge differences between drivers. As I see from outside, some have surprisingly limited technical knowledge, even though they use and live with these cars, and a few know quite a lot. Some drivers think they will leave this to the engineers, some thinks they want to be involved. And so on.
I think, Schumacher for example as someone who was knowledgable and very involved, and I have the sense Ferrari does not have this with Hamilton.

[Mosin123]

In general I think the driver is vastly overstated in the development process, only because we as fans have an attachment to them. The job of the driver in terms of development is to provide reliable feedback about the limitations of the car on track, and to have a practical understanding of how to set up the car. Beyond that development is basically all engineering.

How can a driver come up with constructive criticism on the allocation of resources and personnel when they don't have a proper understanding on what those resources and personnel are actually doing? It just becomes a guessing game. F1 engineering is high science done by the academically gifted, F1 driving is repetitive grunt work done by people who barely graduated high school. There's little common understanding there, just common goals.

Think AM might say differently. They was very very public about phrasing Vettels work, they was so pleased they credited the success of the following season after he retired down to him, Must have been very unimportant to them to get such thanks....... Redbull phrase Max all the time with his on and off track work in helping develop the car, as do other teams.

If drivers feedback was not important, and made no difference, Why do teams keep testing parts on track?

How do they match the data on the computer with real world data if they dont need the driver to get it?
no need for any practice sessions at all if they was not needed, yet the teams always moan about lack of real world testing....

Overstated, More like underestimated.

[JPower]

As always I think the truth is in the middle.
While drivers do not contribute to design the car, their opinion about the last car does affect the design process and the engineers greatly.
So both side is equally important, even if their work and work amount differs greatly. And of course there must be huge differences between drivers. As I see from outside, some have surprisingly limited technical knowledge, even though they use and live with these cars, and a few know quite a lot. Some drivers think they will leave this to the engineers, some thinks they want to be involved. And so on.
I think, Schumacher for example as someone who was knowledgable and very involved, and I have the sense Ferrari does not have this with Hamilton.

Based on what exactly?

[sucof]

As always I think the truth is in the middle.
While drivers do not contribute to design the car, their opinion about the last car does affect the design process and the engineers greatly.
So both side is equally important, even if their work and work amount differs greatly. And of course there must be huge differences between drivers. As I see from outside, some have surprisingly limited technical knowledge, even though they use and live with these cars, and a few know quite a lot. Some drivers think they will leave this to the engineers, some thinks they want to be involved. And so on.
I think, Schumacher for example as someone who was knowledgable and very involved, and I have the sense Ferrari does not have this with Hamilton.

Based on what exactly?

Based all I known about him. It is common knowledge. He spent crazy time in Maranello, testing and helping developing the car. He was highly methodical in his approach to racing and was always keen about every detail. I mean, did you live under a rock not knowing about him?

[Badger]

In general I think the driver is vastly overstated in the development process, only because we as fans have an attachment to them. The job of the driver in terms of development is to provide reliable feedback about the limitations of the car on track, and to have a practical understanding of how to set up the car. Beyond that development is basically all engineering.

How can a driver come up with constructive criticism on the allocation of resources and personnel when they don't have a proper understanding on what those resources and personnel are actually doing? It just becomes a guessing game. F1 engineering is high science done by the academically gifted, F1 driving is repetitive grunt work done by people who barely graduated high school. There's little common understanding there, just common goals.

Think AM might say differently. They was very very public about phrasing Vettels work, they was so pleased they credited the success of the following season after he retired down to him, Must have been very unimportant to them to get such thanks....... Redbull phrase Max all the time with his on and off track work in helping develop the car, as do other teams.

If drivers feedback was not important, and made no difference, Why do teams keep testing parts on track?

How do they match the data on the computer with real world data if they dont need the driver to get it?
no need for any practice sessions at all if they was not needed, yet the teams always moan about lack of real world testing....

Overstated, More like underestimated.

The driver feeback is important, I mentioned it in my comment if you didn't read it. But beyond that the driver's role in development is limited. And when people start talking about how the team should listen to the driver about things like allocation of resources etc, that's crazy.

[JPower]

As always I think the truth is in the middle.
While drivers do not contribute to design the car, their opinion about the last car does affect the design process and the engineers greatly.
So both side is equally important, even if their work and work amount differs greatly. And of course there must be huge differences between drivers. As I see from outside, some have surprisingly limited technical knowledge, even though they use and live with these cars, and a few know quite a lot. Some drivers think they will leave this to the engineers, some thinks they want to be involved. And so on.
I think, Schumacher for example as someone who was knowledgable and very involved, and I have the sense Ferrari does not have this with Hamilton.

Based on what exactly?

Based all I known about him. It is common knowledge. He spent crazy time in Maranello, testing and helping developing the car. He was highly methodical in his approach to racing and was always keen about every detail. I mean, did you live under a rock not knowing about him?

I'm talking about Hamilton

[mvfad]

Humans naturally possess a high ego. I strongly doubt that most of main engineers today pay attention to what drivers say. All they need is in the telemetry data, and many of them have studied this for over 10 years, and they're unlikely to pay any attention to what a mere driver says. It would be like a civil engineer listening to a bricklayer during the construction of something (highly improbable).

[JPower]

Humans naturally possess a high ego. I strongly doubt that most of main engineers today pay attention to what drivers say. All they need is in the telemetry data, and many of them have studied this for over 10 years, and they're unlikely to pay any attention to what a mere driver says. It would be like a civil engineer listening to a bricklayer during the construction of something (highly improbable).

Newey recently said the driver is still one of the most important sensors available to engineers. That doesn't mean they have to cater to driver preferences but telemetry can't tell you everything. There is still a human element.

When a driver says "When I brake and apply lock at X, Y happens. I don't think that is helping gain time. Can we make it do Z instead?" they may have created an event an engineer may not have accounted for in their models. I'm sure it happens all the time.

[dans79]

I strongly doubt that most of main engineers today pay attention to what drivers say.

That's a good way for an engineer of any type to loose their job.

[mvfad]

You guys have a very romantic view of things.

Even at Red Bull, where Newey worked, Perez has said several times that he was never listened to. Hamilton, when he was at Mercedes, also complained a lot about never being listened to, etc., etc., etc...

It's a human thing. Almost all the car's behavior is in the telemetry data; most engineers will believe the telemetry more than the drivers' words, for ego reasons.

And this happens even with race engineers when setting up the car, so imagine what happens with the high-level engineers responsible for the car design...

[Luscion]

You guys have a very romantic view of things.

Even at Red Bull, where Newey worked, Perez has said several times that he was never listened to. Hamilton, when he was at Mercedes, also complained a lot about never being listened to, etc., etc., etc...

It's a human thing. Almost all the car's behavior is in the telemetry data; most engineers will believe the telemetry more than the drivers' words, for ego reasons.

And this happens even with race engineers when setting up the car, so imagine what happens with the high-level engineers responsible for the car design...

I dont think that those are best examples to use considering in both cases they got apologies from their teams for not listening

[PlatinumZealot]

The workers from other orgs will know of the different processes and how well they work though.

In car design the drivers will see little bits and peices of how many designers there are, who works on what and how the department heads integrate themselves etc.

Lewis will know very little about what the *actual* processes are of the rest of the team when it comes all the important bits that make a difference, though. He couldn't know this, because he's never done it as a job. It's the height of arrogance to think driving an F1 car makes you an expert on how to run other departments of an F1 team that you have no experience with whatsoever. As if all those other department leads are somehow just fools who need a freaking DRIVER to tell them how to do better. It's massively insulting. It's like if you were a software engineer and some guy who makes coffee is telling you that you're doing it all wrong. Completely disrespects the expertise involved at all levels in an F1 team.

All the important aspects of getting a department to work well require good people management and genuine experience within that field. The idea that a DRIVER would know better is insanity.

Lewis saw the very surface level stuff within the organization, but never the actual real, serious behind the scenes, day-to-day work.

I'm sorry but Ferrari top brass have all reason in the world to tell Lewis to piss off when it comes to making changes to the organizational situation of Ferrari. And I'm not saying Ferrari dont have organizational issues, but Lewis, or any driver, will not be the person who can properly identify where those issues are and how to change them.

It really is just indicative of what I've disliked about Lewis for so long - he's hugely arrogant. I respect(ed) his driving skills immensely, but so much outside of that makes it seem like the guy really thinks his farts smell like perfume.

I think you missunderstand the role the driver plays in a team. He IS a central peice and will be exposed to all departments and how they work. He will be called to test developments he will be aware or wind tunnel runs and upgrades coming to the car. He will be in meetings with the designers.

There are people who have an unbiased view while being more connected than any of us here, and many credible ones pretty much agree with my thoughts. Ferrari should wise-up and start making ever effort to consider what Hamilton is saying about how a winning team should be!


https://www.planetf1.com/news/ferrari-m ... o-cigarini

Cigarini is convinced that Hamilton can be Ferrari’s Michael Schumacher 2.0, but only if he is allowed to shape the team’s direction.

“Hamilton brings knowledge and organisation typical of British teams, which are highly structured and different from Ferrari,” said Cigarini.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/juan-pabl ... port-tools

“The faster Ferrari’s team and engineers listen to Hamilton on how to make the car better, the better it will be for the team in the long term.”

I'm surprised you are failing to see this. Or are you turning away from a bitter medicine?

[PlatinumZealot]

In general I think the driver is vastly overstated in the development process, only because we as fans have an attachment to them. The job of the driver in terms of development is to provide reliable feedback about the limitations of the car on track, and to have a practical understanding of how to set up the car. Beyond that development is basically all engineering.

How can a driver come up with constructive criticism on the allocation of resources and personnel when they don't have a proper understanding on what those resources and personnel are actually doing? It just becomes a guessing game. F1 engineering is high science done by the academically gifted, F1 driving is repetitive grunt work done by people who barely graduated high school. There's little common understanding there, just common goals.

Did you know that Michael Schumacher was the one that came up with the idea to measure minimum speeds in the turns? He asked for a little digital display on his steering that clipped at the lowest speed when he goes through each corner. He didn't have to be an engineer to come up with that did he? I hope you understand what we mean when we say a clever driver with all-round experience can have a driect impact into the performance of processes into the car and around the car.