2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Jolle
Jolle
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Hamilton said in the post race interview that the team didn't perform well, operation wise. Could be anything, could be nothing (not the right coffee in the morning?). Big chance they were off on their setup/preparation of the car and the GP, why they fell so far back on Friday. Should be an easy fix with a good kick on the backside.

Somehow I can see Paddy Lowe giving a aggressive motivational speech, to deliver that kick and James Allison not so much....

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Phil
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Auto-Motor-und-Sport (AMuS) has a insightful article on their website:

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 89580.html

AMuS wrote:Toto Wolff erklärt die starken Formschwankungen des Mercedes W08 damit, dass man eine gute Plattform habe, deren Funktionieren aber zu stark von unterschiedlichsten Einflüssen abhängig ist. Fünf Parameter bestimmen, ob der Silberpfeil das schnellste Auto auf der Strecke oder nur die Nummer 3 im Feld ist. Der Abtrieb, den die Strecke verlangt, die Asphalttemperatur, der Grip, den der Belag bietet, das Fahrzeug-Setup und der Fahrstil der Piloten.

Beim Abtrieb gilt: Je mehr das Streckenlayout verlangt, desto schlechter für Mercedes und desto besser für Ferrari und neuerdings auch für Red Bull. Monte Carlo, Budapest und Singapur haben das bereits angedeutet. Sepang ist die Strecke, die in Bezug auf Abtrieb an vierter Stelle folgt. Das kam für alle Teams überraschend.

Auch bei den Asphalttemperaturen gibt es ein klares Schema: Je heißer, desto schlechter für Mercedes. Dann neigen je nach Fahrzeugabstimmung die Vorder- oder Hinterreifen zum Überhitzen. Wie wichtig das Wetter ist, wurde in Singapur deutlich. Als am Sonntag die Temperaturen fielen, hatte Mercedes plötzlich ein Siegerauto. Umgekehrt litten die Silberpfeile am Renntag von Malaysia unter den im Vergleich zum Freitag höheren Temperaturen.

(..)

Eines der größten Rätsel ist der Grip, den die Strecke bietet. Der definiert sich aus der Rauigkeit des Belags und der Haftung, die von der Gummiauflage auf der Ideallinie bestimmt wird. Rennstrecken mit einer rauen Oberfläche sind Gift für Mercedes und ein Geschenk für Ferrari und Red Bull.

Die Verteilung der Siege korrespondiert mit der Asphaltbeschaffenheit. Auf einer grünen Strecke ist Mercedes fast unschlagbar. Ausnahme Malaysia. Da half nicht einmal der Regen, der am Freitag und Sonntag den Gummi von der Straße gewaschen hatte. „Was ein Indiz dafür ist, dass wir in Malaysia genauso unter Wert geschlagen wurden wie Ferrari in Monza“, so das Urteil der Ingenieure.

Doch was passiert genau, wenn die Strecke mit mehr Gummi an Grip gewinnt? Chefingenieur Andrew Shovlin versucht eine Erklärung: „Dann beginnt bei unserem Auto die Hinterachse zu dominieren.“ Um das Auto wieder in Balance zu bringen, muss im Heck freiwillig auf Abtrieb verzichtet werden. Die Folge davon ist, dass das Auto zu rutschen beginnt. Das aber heizt die Reifen zu stark auf. Je mehr das Streckenlayout den Hinterreifen fordert, desto größer werden die Probleme.

Die Abstimmung ist bei Mercedes immer ein Ritt auf Messers Schneide. Aerodynamik und Mechanik sind schwer in Einklang zu bringen. Weil man am Freitag völlig verloren war, entschlossen sich die Ingenieure am Samstag zu einem Experiment. Um eine Referenz zu bekommen, traten das alte und das neue Aero-Paket gegeneinander an. Ohne klares Ergebnis, wie ein Ingenieur erklärt:„ Es gibt ein paar Zweifel, aber sie wurden weder bestätigt, noch ausgeräumt, weil den beiden Paketen auch unterschiedliche Setups zugrunde liegen.“

Schließlich spielt auch der Fahrstil eine Rolle. Hamilton ist in der Lage, Probleme zu umfahren. Bottas nicht. Der Finne schiebt es darauf, dass er im Gegensatz zu seinem Teamkollegen nicht in der Lage ist, gleichzeitig Temperatur auf der Oberfläche und der Karkasse der Reifen zu generieren.

Ihm fehle das Vertrauen, dem Auto mehr abzuverlangen als es dem Gefühl nach hergibt. Hamilton kann wie kein Zweiter dem Auto seinen Willen aufzwingen. Er fährt schneller, als es das Auto eigentlich zulässt und generiert durch die höheren Lasten Reifentemperatur. Das erzeugt einen Dominoeffekt. Mehr Temperatur, mehr Speed, höheres Tempo, mehr Reifentemperatur.
Translated:

Toto Wolff explains that the W08 has a very solid platform, but that operating window is influenced heavily by various factors, some of them out of their control. 5 parameters influence if the W08 is the fastest car on the track or only number 3 (behind Ferrari & RB).

1.) downforce level that the track requires
2.) track surface temperature
3.) track surface grip
4.) car-setup
5.) driving style of the driver

The downforce parameter is quite simple: More downforce and and its worse for Mercedes and better for Ferrari and now RedBull too. Monaco, Hungary, Singapore already highlighted this trend. Malaysia is a track, that ranks 4th where downforce is concerned, which is what surprised many teams.

Track surface temperature is also rather simple: The hotter it is, the worse it is for Mercedes. Depending on the car-setup, either the front or the rears start to overheat. Singapore showed how important the weather can be. On sunday, when the temperatures dropped, Mercedes suddenly had a winning car. Contrary, in Malaysia the car was fast during qualifying under cooler temperatures but struggled in the heat during the race.

Grip is also a big factor too and is determined by how rough the surface and how rubbered in the track is. If the track surface is too grippy, it's bad for Mercedes and good for Ferrari and RedBull. On a green track, the Mercedes is very quick. However when the track gets rubbered in, the car starts to dominate on the rears, which moves the car out of balance. To counter-act that, they then need to take away downforce at the rear which in turn makes the car slide. This in turn heats up the tires and moves them out of the ideal temperature range. This is especially pronounced on tracks that are front-limited (?).

The car setup is like balance on a knife's-edge. Aerodynamic and mechanical-grip are difficult to bring into perfect balance. Because they were lost on Friday in Malaysia, the engineers decided to experiment on Saturday. To get some indication, they analysed the old-aero-spec against the new-aero-spec. Unfortunately, without conclusive results, because both cars had differing setups. Then there's the point that the driving style of the driver is crucial too in how the driver works the tires and the car. Hamilton has an astounding ability to drive around the issues. He drives faster than the car technically allows and puts the tires through more load and generates more heat. This leads to a domino effect. More heat, more speed, faster laps, more tire heat. Bottas on the other hand struggles to get heat on the tire surface and the tire carcass.

DISCLAIMER: Best-effort translation.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

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Vanja #66
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Could I ask anyone who remembers when Merc introduced engine spec #3 this year? I think it was Azerbaijan, but not sure...
AeroGimli.x

And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Vanja #66 wrote:
03 Oct 2017, 10:28
Could I ask anyone who remembers when Merc introduced engine spec #3 this year? I think it was Azerbaijan, but not sure...
Silverstone. 1st, obviously in Australia. 2nd in Spain, 3rd in Britain and 4th in Belgium.

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Jolle wrote:
01 Oct 2017, 22:24
Somehow I can see Paddy Lowe giving a aggressive motivational speech, to deliver that kick and James Allison not so much....
that is the biggest nonsense i've heared about both JA and PL.

If that was even slightly the case we would have seen problems way before in the season.
And you don't even need either Lowe or Allison to kick it, there's Wolff, Lauda and Zetsche for that.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

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Vanja #66
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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GPR-A wrote:
03 Oct 2017, 11:15
Vanja #66 wrote:
03 Oct 2017, 10:28
Could I ask anyone who remembers when Merc introduced engine spec #3 this year? I think it was Azerbaijan, but not sure...
Silverstone. 1st, obviously in Australia. 2nd in Spain, 3rd in Britain and 4th in Belgium.
Thanks, I've checked that just to be sure and you are of course correct. I was 100% sure they used #3 before Silverstone, oh well...
AeroGimli.x

And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

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dans79
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Manoah2u wrote:
03 Oct 2017, 11:28
that is the biggest nonsense i've heared about both JA and PL.

If that was even slightly the case we would have seen problems way before in the season.
And you don't even need either Lowe or Allison to kick it, there's Wolff, Lauda and Zetsche for that.
I agree, I can't see Lowe as a strong personality. Take Bahrain 2014 for example, his radio message to Lewis sounded more like a optional request than a demand. The same could be said for Abu Dhabi last year.
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Shakeman
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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'Mercedes halfway to signing Verstappen for 2019'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p05j20xg

Sounds like nothing more than conjecture at the mo.

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Phil
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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There's some good information in the drivers press conference of Suzuka with Bottas:



It's not as if the car isn't good this year. It's just that sometimes, the team needs to compromise certain aspects to get the tires into the right operating window and keep it there. For example what was stated in the article by AMuS that I translated as in that on some tracks, they have to take away downforce at the rear to get the car into balance, but then that can lead to sliding which pushes the tires out of the temperature range...

That suspension ban must have been a huge coup by Ferrari at the beginning of the year... wonder how Suzuka will turn out.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

Restomaniac
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Phil wrote:
05 Oct 2017, 15:21
There's some good information in the drivers press conference of Suzuka with Bottas:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtXTmQON67Q

It's not as if the car isn't good this year. It's just that sometimes, the team needs to compromise certain aspects to get the tires into the right operating window and keep it there. For example what was stated in the article by AMuS that I translated as in that on some tracks, they have to take away downforce at the rear to get the car into balance, but then that can lead to sliding which pushes the tires out of the temperature range...

That suspension ban must have been a huge coup by Ferrari at the beginning of the year... wonder how Suzuka will turn out.s
That is why I think they will shorten (not as much) and add more rake to be more in line (not the same) with RB and Ferrari. Their current car is too unpredictable.
This is layman's speak BTW but they surely cannot continue with a car that they cannot understand and struggle to get in a good window consistantly.

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SiLo
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Potentially that long wheelbase is hurting them. Usually teams want to run as much downforce at the rear as possible and they struggle to add it to the front. Mercedes seems the other way around.
Felipe Baby!

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dans79
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Phil wrote:
05 Oct 2017, 15:21
That suspension ban must have been a huge coup by Ferrari at the beginning of the year... wonder how Suzuka will turn out.
I agree, I get the felling if the ban hadn't happened this would have been a 2015 type of year for Merc.
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ringo
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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For me, the suspension ban has cause them to design a more complicated suspension ironically.
And it looks like they need a team of rocket scientists to setup the car, and not just at the track, but it looks like data is sent back to HQ where the setup changes are calculated and then sent back to the track. That is how complicated i think their suspension is.
What this has caused is unpredictability because of too many variables with the setup. And when they have less running it makes things worse.
I wont blame the long wheelbase, as that does not change. That is easy to deal with because it's a constant across the calendar. What changes is the suspension settings, and for every change it looks like a ridiculous amount of tuning is required to get it just right. It may even possibly have fric like behavior just the same.

One last thing i blame is the aero. It seems to be dependent on the advantage of the perfectly tuned suspension. So when the suspension is out of whack things kinda start dropping off aerowise and they get their bizarre tyre warming behavior.
The car could use more curvature to make is less sensitive to pitch and yaw..(yes more ellipses :mrgreen: ) :lol:
ferrari and redbull get it. :wink:
For Sure!!

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Schuttelberg
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Shakeman wrote:
05 Oct 2017, 12:41
'Mercedes halfway to signing Verstappen for 2019'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p05j20xg

Sounds like nothing more than conjecture at the mo.
Absolute BS if you ask me. Mercedes would be barking mad to not centre their plans around LH. It's natural to back someone who's achieved so much for you and still is.

Secondly, MV won't bother with a Mercedes if the RedBull is any good in 2018.

Lastly, this seems like a well placed mischievous act of Mercedes/Ferrari to upset Red Bull. Probably Toto Wolff. I can't ever remember a man on TV who's such a liar. :D
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

Bill_Kar
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Schuttelberg wrote:
05 Oct 2017, 21:01
Shakeman wrote:
05 Oct 2017, 12:41
'Mercedes halfway to signing Verstappen for 2019'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p05j20xg

Sounds like nothing more than conjecture at the mo.
Absolute BS if you ask me. Mercedes would be barking mad to not centre their plans around LH. It's natural to back someone who's achieved so much for you and still is.

Secondly, MV won't bother with a Mercedes if the RedBull is any good in 2018.

Lastly, this seems like a well placed mischievous act of Mercedes/Ferrari to upset Red Bull. Probably Toto Wolff. I can't ever remember a man on TV who's such a liar. :D
I agree. It's kind of self-contradicting. LH would leave only if 2018 is a failure year for Mercedes, but if that condition is true, why would MV bother with occupying his seat?As much as I'm fond of Max, he has stated that he needs a "ready to go" team, he simply wants to add some statistics to his career now, and I don't think he is ready to take up the challenge of an overthrown team.
BUT it doesn't mean that they are not thinking this scenario at all. Probably conjecture, but where there's smoke, there is fire.