2019 Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

[SmallSoldier]

I will never understand why people mix the Renault “Team” performance with engine performance... Renault isn’t having a great season and their car isn’t performing, but that’s unrelated to the engine... So, the fact that they are beaten “once again” by a customer team has no bearing in the engine performance and it’s an unnecessary comment in this discussion.

oh since when does the renault works team doesn't drive with another engine then renault?

Their lack of performance isn’t engine related... It’s clearly chassis related (ergo, Mclaren with the same engine is outperforming them).

Chassis is more important than engine in the current formula... And we can see that on the difference between the top 3 and everyone else... Mercedes vs RP and Williams... Ferrari vs Alfa and Haas... RBR vs Toro Rosso.

Trying to correlate Track Performance to just the engine doesn’t provide a picture of the actual PU performance.


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[SmallSoldier]

I don't think anyone in their right mind thinks that Renault are the right team to propel us to the championship, far from it. And I doubt anyone will dispute that they have the worst reliability this year.

But first of all, what can happen, and what can that change? If we put the Merc in this years car, will we be 3rd in the championship, or close? No, because the speed isn't our issue.

It would cost money, it would mean a redesign at the back of the car, a new relationship, moving into the shadow and the "stable" of the greatest competitor. At least now we can claim to be the best of the Renaults. I do not see a benefit from moving engine anytime before 2021. For sure we will get points, but what will those points get us? Just a lot of hassle I think.

I agree with you... The DNF’s are obviously disappointing and watching Norris stop on the last lap was gut wrenching.

But, if it has to happen... I’m glad it’s happening in a season where the team isn’t fighting for third or better in the championship and at a point in the season when we have still a gap to 5th in the constructors championship.

Seidl is just asking for an understanding of the failures, which seems not related to the ICE, but either the MGU-K or ERS.

Renault has made an important step in Power this season, hopefully the gremlins will be dealt with from here to year end and if the team builds an improved race car for next year, we won’t be suffering from the same issues in 2020 and try to fight with the top 3.

The MCL34 isn’t the best of the midfield as qualifying in Spa showed, but it is a very consistent race car and seems to be very decent on race pace.

The team also seems to keep their focus on improving the car and with updates showing at almost every race, with a program that allows them to analyze them individually (they don’t bring several updates per race, but an small ones to determine their actual effect).

In regards to the season, it is still a positive one... I only hope that they can clearly become the 4th fastest car before the end of the year, since that would be a good starting point towards 2020.


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It was gut wrenching. But if I could choose between finishing 12th because performance never come back to us on the Sunday, or the outcome that did play out.... then I'll take Sunday's events, because I'm happy we haven't lost our speed and still optimistic for the remaining races, even if the points didnt go our way.

Watching Norris keep his 5th position throughout the race wasn’t something that I expected after Saturday’s qualifying where we seemed to be off the pace... Even the long runs on FP2 showed Mclaren behind their direct rivals.

I also found interesting that even the team was surprised by it, Seidl stated that they needed to go through the data to understand where the Race Pace came from... I still believe that it was temperature related, with the team overheating the tires on the days before the race.

But yes, even though there is still a sour taste of not finishing the race and leaving 10 points on the table... The fact that the team’s performance was above par for the weekend, was a nice surprise and encouraging for the rest of the season.


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[Capharol]

I will never understand why people mix the Renault “Team” performance with engine performance... Renault isn’t having a great season and their car isn’t performing, but that’s unrelated to the engine... So, the fact that they are beaten “once again” by a customer team has no bearing in the engine performance and it’s an unnecessary comment in this discussion.

oh since when does the renault works team doesn't drive with another engine then renault?

Their lack of performance isn’t engine related... It’s clearly chassis related (ergo, Mclaren with the same engine is outperforming them).

Chassis is more important than engine in the current formula... And we can see that on the difference between the top 3 and everyone else... Mercedes vs RP and Williams... Ferrari vs Alfa and Haas... RBR vs Toro Rosso.

Trying to correlate Track Performance to just the engine doesn’t provide a picture of the actual PU performance.


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do you notice the budget difference between
Mercedes ($ 350 Million) vs Williams ($ 120 Million) & RP ($ 125 Million)
Ferrari ($ 400 Million)vs Alfa ($ 130 Million) & Haas ($ 145 Million)
RBR ($ 350 Million)vs Toro Rosso ($ 140 Million)
Renault ($ 230 Million) vs McLaren ($ 175 Million)

so now tell me why Mercedes, Ferrari, RBR has a better car ..... and even Renault has a better Budget and still gets beaten by McLaren

[M840TR]

I will never understand why people mix the Renault “Team” performance with engine performance... Renault isn’t having a great season and their car isn’t performing, but that’s unrelated to the engine... So, the fact that they are beaten “once again” by a customer team has no bearing in the engine performance and it’s an unnecessary comment in this discussion.

In regards to the engine, the facts seem to show that from a power perspective they are “ok” (I personally don’t care to rank the engines, since they all seem to be pretty similar to each other in terms of power and they have to an extent converged already in that regard).

Renault is still suffering from reliability issues, something that after this many years one would hope that it would have been solved... But, at the same time, every development they bring in has the potential to create new issues... The fact that a team with what was considered the most reliable engine since the Hybrid era (Mercedes) had 2 failures this week, indicates that whenever a new spec is introduced, the potential for failure is there.


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You're forgetting one thing though: none of the cars ran the new spec engine and the issue wasn't related to it in any way.

[SmallSoldier]

oh since when does the renault works team doesn't drive with another engine then renault?

Their lack of performance isn’t engine related... It’s clearly chassis related (ergo, Mclaren with the same engine is outperforming them).

Chassis is more important than engine in the current formula... And we can see that on the difference between the top 3 and everyone else... Mercedes vs RP and Williams... Ferrari vs Alfa and Haas... RBR vs Toro Rosso.

Trying to correlate Track Performance to just the engine doesn’t provide a picture of the actual PU performance.


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do you notice the budget difference between
Mercedes ($ 350 Million) vs Williams ($ 120 Million) & RP ($ 125 Million)
Ferrari ($ 400 Million)vs Alfa ($ 130 Million) & Haas ($ 145 Million)
RBR ($ 350 Million)vs Toro Rosso ($ 140 Million)
Renault ($ 230 Million) vs McLaren ($ 175 Million)

so now tell me why Mercedes, Ferrari, RBR has a better car ..... and even Renault has a better Budget and still gets beaten by McLaren

Yes, I’ve noticed the budget differences... And you prove my argument... The top 3 (due to their larger budgets), make a “Better Car”... Renault hasn’t build a good car regardless of their budget.

The fact that Renault hasn’t build a good race car is no indication of the power/performance of their PU... You are mixing two separate things and that’s the point that you seem to ignore.


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[SmallSoldier]

I will never understand why people mix the Renault “Team” performance with engine performance... Renault isn’t having a great season and their car isn’t performing, but that’s unrelated to the engine... So, the fact that they are beaten “once again” by a customer team has no bearing in the engine performance and it’s an unnecessary comment in this discussion.

In regards to the engine, the facts seem to show that from a power perspective they are “ok” (I personally don’t care to rank the engines, since they all seem to be pretty similar to each other in terms of power and they have to an extent converged already in that regard).

Renault is still suffering from reliability issues, something that after this many years one would hope that it would have been solved... But, at the same time, every development they bring in has the potential to create new issues... The fact that a team with what was considered the most reliable engine since the Hybrid era (Mercedes) had 2 failures this week, indicates that whenever a new spec is introduced, the potential for failure is there.


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You're forgetting one thing though: none of the cars ran the new spec engine and the issue wasn't related to it in any way.

I thought the Carlos did run the latest spec engine... And I’m not saying that the new spec is the culprit for the problems... But, that as long as the PU manufacturers continue to push boundaries and increase their performance, the probability of reliability issues is latent.

I’m not excusing Renault for the failures... But, this failures are probably part of their search for additional performance... Unluckily, we don’t have details in regards to what failed and how it failed.


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[rogazilla]

The temp difference may be the reason for McL performance difference between Friday/Saturday and Sunday during the race.

[diffuser]

I thought the Carlos did run the latest spec engine... And I’m not saying that the new spec is the culprit for the problems... But, that as long as the PU manufacturers continue to push boundaries and increase their performance, the probability of reliability issues is latent.

I’m not excusing Renault for the failures... But, this failures are probably part of their search for additional performance... Unluckily, we don’t have details in regards to what failed and how it failed.


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Only in FP.

[makecry]

oh since when does the renault works team doesn't drive with another engine then renault?

Their lack of performance isn’t engine related... It’s clearly chassis related (ergo, Mclaren with the same engine is outperforming them).

Chassis is more important than engine in the current formula... And we can see that on the difference between the top 3 and everyone else... Mercedes vs RP and Williams... Ferrari vs Alfa and Haas... RBR vs Toro Rosso.

Trying to correlate Track Performance to just the engine doesn’t provide a picture of the actual PU performance.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

do you notice the budget difference between
Mercedes ($ 350 Million) vs Williams ($ 120 Million) & RP ($ 125 Million)
Ferrari ($ 400 Million)vs Alfa ($ 130 Million) & Haas ($ 145 Million)
RBR ($ 350 Million)vs Toro Rosso ($ 140 Million)
Renault ($ 230 Million) vs McLaren ($ 175 Million)

so now tell me why Mercedes, Ferrari, RBR has a better car ..... and even Renault has a better Budget and still gets beaten by McLaren

Your numbers are off. Especially mclaren’s.

[Capharol]

Their lack of performance isn’t engine related... It’s clearly chassis related (ergo, Mclaren with the same engine is outperforming them).

Chassis is more important than engine in the current formula... And we can see that on the difference between the top 3 and everyone else... Mercedes vs RP and Williams... Ferrari vs Alfa and Haas... RBR vs Toro Rosso.

Trying to correlate Track Performance to just the engine doesn’t provide a picture of the actual PU performance.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

do you notice the budget difference between
Mercedes ($ 350 Million) vs Williams ($ 120 Million) & RP ($ 125 Million)
Ferrari ($ 400 Million)vs Alfa ($ 130 Million) & Haas ($ 145 Million)
RBR ($ 350 Million)vs Toro Rosso ($ 140 Million)
Renault ($ 230 Million) vs McLaren ($ 175 Million)

so now tell me why Mercedes, Ferrari, RBR has a better car ..... and even Renault has a better Budget and still gets beaten by McLaren

Yes, I’ve noticed the budget differences... And you prove my argument... The top 3 (due to their larger budgets), make a “Better Car”... Renault hasn’t build a good car regardless of their budget.

The fact that Renault hasn’t build a good race car is no indication of the power/performance of their PU... You are mixing two separate things and that’s the point that you seem to ignore.


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then explain to me why Mclaren is so much better with a lower budget then Renault ? if your point is true why isn't Renault the better car with they're super engine? because we talked about the PU..... failing for AT LEAST 6 times only this year..... and you can't tell me the chassis of Renault is that way off every year since they are back

you just seems to make up your own world as you like it and twist words so they fit you (now i remember why i had you on ignore ---> back on that list

@makecry they are fresh from AMuS from an article of 21.07.2019 ... go down pic-gallery
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ittelfeld/#

[Ground Effect]

do you notice the budget difference between
Mercedes ($ 350 Million) vs Williams ($ 120 Million) & RP ($ 125 Million)
Ferrari ($ 400 Million)vs Alfa ($ 130 Million) & Haas ($ 145 Million)
RBR ($ 350 Million)vs Toro Rosso ($ 140 Million)
Renault ($ 230 Million) vs McLaren ($ 175 Million)

so now tell me why Mercedes, Ferrari, RBR has a better car ..... and even Renault has a better Budget and still gets beaten by McLaren

Yes, I’ve noticed the budget differences... And you prove my argument... The top 3 (due to their larger budgets), make a “Better Car”... Renault hasn’t build a good car regardless of their budget.

The fact that Renault hasn’t build a good race car is no indication of the power/performance of their PU... You are mixing two separate things and that’s the point that you seem to ignore.


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then explain to me why Mclaren is so much better with a lower budget then Renault ? if your point is true why isn't Renault the better car with they're super engine? because we talked about the PU..... failing for AT LEAST 6 times only this year..... and you can't tell me the chassis of Renault is that way off every year since they are back

you just seems to make up your own world as you like it and twist words so they fit you (now i remember why i had you on ignore ---> back on that list

@makecry they are fresh from AMuS from an article of 21.07.2019 ... go down pic-gallery
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ittelfeld/#

Does the Renault budget include engine development? If it does, then it's miniscule.

[mwillems]

McLaren's budget is reported as being in the low $200m region.

Their driver salaries are also substantially lower than the two of the three teams above them which will make quite a difference.

Mercedes budget is 400m which I think, but I'm not sure, also includes engine development. If that is the case then when you remove engine costs and driver salaries, the gap is big, but not 180m big.

This is based on 2018 reported data, I'd like to think that Mclarens budget will.increase over the next few years. Important to note that McLaren did state that last years budget shortfall was covered by the latifi equity. So a budget increase may not be immediate as the extra income would initially cover that shortfall.

We wont be fighting at the very front for a few years, unless we find some magical solution.

[mwillems]

Yes, I’ve noticed the budget differences... And you prove my argument... The top 3 (due to their larger budgets), make a “Better Car”... Renault hasn’t build a good car regardless of their budget.

The fact that Renault hasn’t build a good race car is no indication of the power/performance of their PU... You are mixing two separate things and that’s the point that you seem to ignore.


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then explain to me why Mclaren is so much better with a lower budget then Renault ? if your point is true why isn't Renault the better car with they're super engine? because we talked about the PU..... failing for AT LEAST 6 times only this year..... and you can't tell me the chassis of Renault is that way off every year since they are back

you just seems to make up your own world as you like it and twist words so they fit you (now i remember why i had you on ignore ---> back on that list

@makecry they are fresh from AMuS from an article of 21.07.2019 ... go down pic-gallery
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ittelfeld/#

Does the Renault budget include engine development? If it does, then it's miniscule.

Based on the netflix documentary I dont think the budget includes engines. I think ferrari and mercedes do.

[SmallSoldier]

do you notice the budget difference between
Mercedes ($ 350 Million) vs Williams ($ 120 Million) & RP ($ 125 Million)
Ferrari ($ 400 Million)vs Alfa ($ 130 Million) & Haas ($ 145 Million)
RBR ($ 350 Million)vs Toro Rosso ($ 140 Million)
Renault ($ 230 Million) vs McLaren ($ 175 Million)

so now tell me why Mercedes, Ferrari, RBR has a better car ..... and even Renault has a better Budget and still gets beaten by McLaren

Yes, I’ve noticed the budget differences... And you prove my argument... The top 3 (due to their larger budgets), make a “Better Car”... Renault hasn’t build a good car regardless of their budget.

The fact that Renault hasn’t build a good race car is no indication of the power/performance of their PU... You are mixing two separate things and that’s the point that you seem to ignore.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

then explain to me why Mclaren is so much better with a lower budget then Renault ? if your point is true why isn't Renault the better car with they're super engine? because we talked about the PU..... failing for AT LEAST 6 times only this year..... and you can't tell me the chassis of Renault is that way off every year since they are back

you just seems to make up your own world as you like it and twist words so they fit you (now i remember why i had you on ignore ---> back on that list

@makecry they are fresh from AMuS from an article of 21.07.2019 ... go down pic-gallery
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ittelfeld/#

Make my “own world”... What are you talking about?

Renault simply hasn’t build a good chassis, that’s really it... Mclaren has done a better job “with the chassis”, they both use the same PU... Why are you mixing Car performance with PU performance is something I can’t comprehend.

Mclaren simply has build a better chassis than Renault with a lower budget, why is that so hard to understand?... I am not twisting words.

The fact that teams with the same PU can have so different performance shows the huge effect that the chassis has, which was shown by RBR last year when they were clearly ahead of both Renault and Mclaren with the same PU... The size of the budget isn’t a guarantee that you will have a great chassis (look at Ferrari)... And the fact that you may not have the best chassis, doesn’t imply that the PU doesn’t have performance.

Also, Performance and Reliability are too different things... There is no denying that the reliability of the Renault engine isn’t meeting expectations.

Regarding the ignore list, I guess that if you can’t have an adult discussion, that’s an easy way to avoid it.


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[zoroastar]

do you notice the budget difference between
Mercedes ($ 350 Million) vs Williams ($ 120 Million) & RP ($ 125 Million)
Ferrari ($ 400 Million)vs Alfa ($ 130 Million) & Haas ($ 145 Million)
RBR ($ 350 Million)vs Toro Rosso ($ 140 Million)
Renault ($ 230 Million) vs McLaren ($ 175 Million)

so now tell me why Mercedes, Ferrari, RBR has a better car ..... and even Renault has a better Budget and still gets beaten by McLaren

Yes, I’ve noticed the budget differences... And you prove my argument... The top 3 (due to their larger budgets), make a “Better Car”... Renault hasn’t build a good car regardless of their budget.

The fact that Renault hasn’t build a good race car is no indication of the power/performance of their PU... You are mixing two separate things and that’s the point that you seem to ignore.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

then explain to me why Mclaren is so much better with a lower budget then Renault ? if your point is true why isn't Renault the better car with they're super engine? because we talked about the PU..... failing for AT LEAST 6 times only this year..... and you can't tell me the chassis of Renault is that way off every year since they are back

you just seems to make up your own world as you like it and twist words so they fit you (now i remember why i had you on ignore ---> back on that list

@makecry they are fresh from AMuS from an article of 21.07.2019 ... go down pic-gallery
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ittelfeld/#

how did redbull win several races with the renault in the back last year, with a PU that was inferior "power wise" compared to this year? if you are just dissing on renault as a company, then i understand your logic, but their chassis really has nothing to do with the PU development theyve been doing since before 2014. f1s history is littered with large budget teams that produce a slow chassis from time to time.