Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Shooty81]

Need i said more?

https://twitter.com/LupionGP/status/846031997185282050

Yep ...don't need to put a HP number to it.... Its ALOT

Ok. And now take by that logic the second car and compare it with the Mercedes engine of Massa. How big is the HP difference now?

[Singabule]

I think there is some misunderstanding here. The vibration problems Honda has result out of the new crankshaft design or the firing order. Atleast that's what I think. The potential for harmonic vibrations rsulting out of bigger combustion vibrations are low, probably about Zero

The problem, why they (atleast it seems like that) didn't use TJI, is because of the faulty head design. They need to fix their rumoured problems with the valves and so on...

Vibration fix is relatively easy, it's jsut making the engine a big heavier. How long will the fix for the head take? Probably less than 2 months, it should be ready for spain.

The cleaner and less raspier Sound of the PU indicates, that no TJI has been used. I know it's not much and things like that can't be really seen in a "audio analysis". But if you hear closely, you can really somehow figure out that combustion is running "smoother".

Yes i think it is because firing order, crank, and cylinder cutting. With short crank torsional vibration should be minimum, as their engine is not a straight line. With massive vibration from sudden cylinder cutting, would shake and may loosen any electrical terminal and May lead to short circuit. Imagine you running with clogged spark, you can imagine what vibration would occur. Seems that honda miscalculated how much vibration that can be handled by MCL transmission and its electrical when integrated in chasis.

[GhostF1]

Need i said more?

https://twitter.com/LupionGP/status/846031997185282050

Yep ...don't need to put a HP number to it.... Its ALOT

Ok. And now take by that logic the second car and compare it with the Mercedes engine of Massa. How big is the HP difference now?

This..
How is everyone ignoring Vandoorne's trap speed... So infuriating. Ready to attack at any chance it seems. The 16km/h difference must mean Vandoorne's Honda has 80hp more than Alonso...
Can we return to common sense now? Thanks.

[GhostF1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHfCDDyEcA8

The above video is an onboard with Alonso for the 2 formation laps, it's a good watch.
The engines behavior in varying conditions is always interesting to see.
(Also note that both times he comes onto the straight from the last corner, he hits a button on the lower left of the steering wheel and the engine starts the cylinder cut scenario, he hits it again and it does a couple rev ups and then he accelerates again.
It's really quite odd as the videos I've watched of them leaving the pits or coming in, they don't ALWAYS do it, there are times they just accelerate off. It seems sporadic in its use. So it's true function when taking in this "random use" timeframe alludes me. Thoughts?

[wuzak]

That coupled with the 100% torque demand that goes along with most up shifts coupled by an immediate drop in revs. Downshifts requiring far less torque demand or even negative.

More precise control of the other systems (turbine/compressor/K/H) may not be quite to what is required for combustion stability during abrupt changes in operating conditions.

Not quite.
On a downshift you increase the engine speed by a few thousand rpm in about 0.1 sec.
That is a massive angular acceleration.
Torque is then given by the whole engine inertia times that angular acceleration. That's a big number regardless what sign it has ! (It is positive)

No, I was referring to the combustion side, torque demand at the pedal/brake. I'm saying maybe it is an issue of not being able to maintain combustion stability on the upshift, when torque (combustion) is demanded as opposed to braking when downshifting.

If it was a matter of forces between ice/trans, wouldn't you see if on both up and down shifts?

An interesting point about the Honda gear shift, it seems to be on the higher gears. Certainly when I watched from T6 on Friday the odd shift noise didn't appear until the second or 3rd shift away from the corner.

And after the shift the engine note wavered slightly as well. Perhaps there was some compressor surge?

[luke352]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHfCDDyEcA8

The above video is an onboard with Alonso for the 2 formation laps, it's a good watch.
The engines behavior in varying conditions is always interesting to see.
(Also note that both times he comes onto the straight from the last corner, he hits a button on the lower left of the steering wheel and the engine starts the cylinder cut scenario, he hits it again and it does a couple rev ups and then he accelerates again.
It's really quite odd as the videos I've watched of them leaving the pits or coming in, they don't ALWAYS do it, there are times they just accelerate off. It seems sporadic in its use. So it's true function when taking in this "random use" timeframe alludes me. Thoughts?

Possibly something to do with enabling an engine/transmission mode before he aggressively spins the tyres.

[luke352]

Not quite.
On a downshift you increase the engine speed by a few thousand rpm in about 0.1 sec.
That is a massive angular acceleration.
Torque is then given by the whole engine inertia times that angular acceleration. That's a big number regardless what sign it has ! (It is positive)

No, I was referring to the combustion side, torque demand at the pedal/brake. I'm saying maybe it is an issue of not being able to maintain combustion stability on the upshift, when torque (combustion) is demanded as opposed to braking when downshifting.

If it was a matter of forces between ice/trans, wouldn't you see if on both up and down shifts?

An interesting point about the Honda gear shift, it seems to be on the higher gears. Certainly when I watched from T6 on Friday the odd shift noise didn't appear until the second or 3rd shift away from the corner.

And after the shift the engine note wavered slightly as well. Perhaps there was some compressor surge?

Yep watching from the Fangio stand (we were basically on the start/finish line) as they came down the straight it only occurred on the last shift before they had to start slowing again. But it didn't happen everytime, maybe related to engine mode as well. Is definitely a very unique sound that most of the sound clips I've heard don't fully capture it.

[wuzak]

Yep ...don't need to put a HP number to it.... Its ALOT

Ok. And now take by that logic the second car and compare it with the Mercedes engine of Massa. How big is the HP difference now?

This..
How is everyone ignoring Vandoorne's trap speed... So infuriating. Ready to attack at any chance it seems. The 16km/h difference must mean Vandoorne's Honda has 80hp more than Alonso...
Can we return to common sense now? Thanks.

I'd suggest Vandoorne got to use DRS and Alonso didn't. And some of the others around his speed maybe didn't either.

[Rudex]

Ok. And now take by that logic the second car and compare it with the Mercedes engine of Massa. How big is the HP difference now?

This..
How is everyone ignoring Vandoorne's trap speed... So infuriating. Ready to attack at any chance it seems. The 16km/h difference must mean Vandoorne's Honda has 80hp more than Alonso...
Can we return to common sense now? Thanks.

I'd suggest Vandoorne got to use DRS and Alonso didn't. And some of the others around his speed maybe didn't either.

If look at Vandoorne times, he lift and coast more extreme than Alonso, Alonso with Occon behind he had continious saving fuel and VAndoorne did one faster lap and one slower lap. You can check graphs laps and the own words from Vandoorne saying it. Indeed, the faster lap Vandoorne is 0.5s faster than Alo.

[Postmoe]

3) Anyone thinking they can make anything of the engine sound by just listening is simply disillusioned. That exhaust sound is dominated by the 1.5th order and distorted by exhaust tuning frequency and turbo blade passing frequency. Maybe with decent software you can filter out these frequencies (primary firing is easy, exhaust is probably tuned around 10k rpm and turbo likely has an odd number of blades if a twin entry turbine is used) but even so I reckon you would struggle to make sense of what's left.

But being able to tell whether or not it has TJI by just listening? Really ??!!

F1 is not free of audiophiles.

I would say is no way to understand a combustion process as an extreme reverse engineering process: too much variable elements before the combustion chamber.

An, anyway, regarding the weird engine sounds... back in 2007's, Honda's had such distinctive, weird clutching-disaster noises. I remember being at Repsol's back in the days, Montmeló circuit, and it was pretty noticeable. It meant nothing and everything.

[Tommy Cookers]

[quote=Singabule post]......Yes i think it is because firing order, crank, and cylinder cutting. .......With massive vibration from sudden cylinder cutting, would shake and may loosen any electrical terminal and May lead to short circuit. Imagine you running with clogged spark, you can imagine what vibration would occur. Seems that honda miscalculated how much vibration that can be handled by MCL transmission and its electrical when integrated in chasis.[/quote]

cylinder cutting is notionally seamless eg instantaneously replacing 6 cylinders each throttled for 50% torque with 3 each unthrottled for 100% torque
ie not as things would be if our road car suddenly lost a plug lead


there must also be calculable effects of the maximum mechanical energy transfer excursion either way between motor and load
eg the motor seizing or the worst-case (totally unmodulated) shift
presumably the design allows for this (there's inherent tyre and gearshaft compliance and added transmission joint and other compliances)
ie presumably the K will tolerate this worst-case
and this worst-case can be regarded numerically as a particular surge frequency

but any element of repetition in surge around this frequency can be even worse than the 'worst-case' - by what we might call resonant amplification
this could occur by any imperfection in co-ordination of a whole lot of actions that need perfect co-ordination (for shifting)

[JuanjoTS]

There's also piston height itself, a thinner piston let's you use a longer rod, for the same throw, increasing the rod ratio.

We all know that these huge multinationals have long since have had programs that simulate and optimize most of these minor variables.

This character does not have the slightest idea, I do not understand why he can put negative points an ignorant, to which a variation in diameter is a cylinder of 0,2mm (80mm +/- 0,1mm) it seems that it is not significant (0,125%) And he orders me to read the regulations.

Power unit dimensions :
5.3.1 Cylinder bore diameter must be 80mm (+/- 0.1mm).
5.3.2 The crankshaft centre line must lie on the car centre line and 90mm (+/-0.5mm) above the
reference plane. The power unit may only transmit torque to the gearbox by means of a single
output shaft that must be co-axial with the crankshaft. The output shaft must rotate clockwise
when viewed from the front of the car.
5.3.3 Valve stem diameter must not be less than 4.95mm.
5.3.4 The crankshaft main bearing journal diameter (measured on the crankshaft) must not be less
than 43.95 mm.
5.3.5 The crankshaft crank pin bearing journal diameter (measured on the crankshaft) must not be
less than 37.95mm.
5.3.6 No cylinder of the engine may have a geometric compression ratio higher than 18.0.

For this the mm are not important, he does it to spans.
In the majority is defined a minimum of dimensions, forbid to make it bigger?

[JuanjoTS]

I can not find the function to delete the message.

[Thunder]

This character does not have the slightest idea, I do not understand why he can put negative points an ignorant, to which a variation in diameter is a cylinder of 2mm (80mm +/- 1mm) it seems that it is not significant (2,5%) And he orders me to read the regulations.

You better read the Regs you posted one post later. It's 0.2mm (80mm +/- 0.1mm).

Oh and could you use the Edit posts function to extend your Posts? No need to make a new post for every new thought.

[dren]

Not quite.
On a downshift you increase the engine speed by a few thousand rpm in about 0.1 sec.
That is a massive angular acceleration.
Torque is then given by the whole engine inertia times that angular acceleration. That's a big number regardless what sign it has ! (It is positive)

No, I was referring to the combustion side, torque demand at the pedal/brake. I'm saying maybe it is an issue of not being able to maintain combustion stability on the upshift, when torque (combustion) is demanded as opposed to braking when downshifting.

If it was a matter of forces between ice/trans, wouldn't you see if on both up and down shifts?

An interesting point about the Honda gear shift, it seems to be on the higher gears. Certainly when I watched from T6 on Friday the odd shift noise didn't appear until the second or 3rd shift away from the corner.

And after the shift the engine note wavered slightly as well. Perhaps there was some compressor surge?

Interesting point that it is in the higher gears. Output from the PU should be the same relative to rpm and pedal demand. The load that the trans puts on the PU during shifting would be dependent on the gear. I'd assume the frequencies are higher as you can hear the trans start to whine when in higher gears.

But wouldn't resonant frequencies be tied more to the static mass the PU is tied to?