Mercedes GP MGP W01

[Raptor22]

they need to slash the downforce.

too much wings currently. limit wing incidence to 25 degrees maximum no more.

this way no one replaces wings and everybody is affected equally.

the merc itself certainly seems to need more front end grip.

[ArchAngel]

...Ross has said that the diffuser interpretation this year is very clear and it is unlikely that there will be any bans. I believe that is correct. The rumbling around the McLaren diffusor from Ferrari was without any consequences. Brawn will probably bring something very similar to the McLaren solution. Why should that be banned?

Looks like there's still some room for clarification (and probably regulation tightening) on this matter, after all.

Autosport: FIA to clarify double diffuser issue
By Jonathan Noble (Monday, March 15th 2010, 09:22 GMT)

Mercedes, Bahrain 2010The FIA is set to issue a clarification about double diffuser designs prior to the Australian Grand Prix, following concerns about a number of teams exploiting the area for added performance.

FIA's technical chief Charlie Whiting inspected all the cars at the Bahrain Grand Prix and AUTOSPORT understands that there is some unease about teams utilising start motor holes to make their diffusers more effective.

F1's technical regulations state that a hole can exist in the diffuser to allow access for an engine start motor. Article 3.12.7 states: "A single break in the surface is permitted solely to allow the minimum required access for the device referred to in Article 5.15. [supposed to refer to starter motor, although this is Article 5.16]".

There is no definition of what the 'minimum' requirement is though - and some teams have used exotically shaped starter motors to allow themselves to fit sculpted holes in the diffuser that produce an aerodynamic benefit.

It is understood talks took place between the FIA and at least three teams - including McLaren and Mercedes GP – to sort out the matter. The governing body believes that the outfits are exploiting the rules with what they are doing – even if they are not strictly going against the regulations...

<< Full article here >>

[segedunum]

That's what I understood to be happening. They're going to close the loophole that they're using to create this hole to any size they like, and that's the reclarification. They need to define what 'minimum access' is, or rather 'maximum access'. At least they're getting something right. I haven't got a clue what Martin Whitmwarsh is talking about there.

[marcush.]

quite amusing:
http://www.express.de/sport/motorsport/ ... index.html

schumi reworks the Mercedes himself ... and cures understeer with more weight on the front axle.

If this is really what he said ...then good night merc..
but of course Brawns guys have a clue and know that you cannot gain grip on a already overloaded tyre by putting vertical load by more weight on it.

amusing still if you´d try to reduce sliding by increasing downforce maybe that could help but not by transferring weight.

[Ganxxta]

Well you have to admit that the Express is not a reliable source for good news, isn't it? :p

But the understeering part is true, he said something like this, but that schumi reworks his car himself is nonsense invented by the jounalists for a good headline

[bugref]

not good on aero dynamics concept though. but by looking at top speed. clearly merc is not up to the challenge. I was concern about its nose its still more focus in curving downward, can they just adopt the nose designed by redbull, ferari or maclaren? I believe their merc nose designs is what creating the drag so much. can they just adapt the nose concept of the top team. where it has a designs where it can let the drag flow in the car more smoothly rather than letting the nose have it sliced the drag.
as the nose slices the air most of the air passes on the top side of the nose thereby pushing the front down more, resulting to adding too much pressure on the front tyre.
I am looking forward on a rectify designs of the GP W01 nose. by far its the only designs I believe that should be corrected.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Marcush

Surely moving weight(mass)forward but behind the front suspension will do the trick?
Am I right in saying that it is possible to move ballast from within the car during a race?

Shumchacer loves neutral/oversteer cars, its how he hustles. To expect miracles in a car that understeers all the time is ludicrous. We will see how Mercedes manage the issue.

[mach11]

Marcush

Shumchacer loves neutral/oversteer cars, its how he hustles. To expect miracles in a car that understeers all the time is ludicrous. We will see how Mercedes manage the issue.

Rightly said... it will take some time... but he will get there

[marcush.]

Marcush

Surely moving weight(mass)forward but behind the front suspension will do the trick?
Am I right in saying that it is possible to move ballast from within the car during a race?

Shumchacer loves neutral/oversteer cars, its how he hustles. To expect miracles in a car that understeers all the time is ludicrous. We will see how Mercedes manage the issue.

definetly NO

if you have understeer caused by a overloaded front tyre ,moving mass to the front will lead to even more overload.So in effect you will achieve only:
the front tyres will warm up quicker than before ,and will rapidly degrade to even less performance than you already had :BIG time UNDERSTEER.
If your overstressing of the fronts is caused by excessive sliding you might get a solution by adding front downforce (reducing the sliding),lowering heat generation and achieving better grip out of this .
with our limited knowledge of what is the root cause of the car understeering I´m
very sure it is not a problem of not enough mass distribution bias to the front.
The clear statement of all involeved was the problem was not low temps or underworking of the tyre ,it was overworking ,because of the reduction of contact patch size....it seems quite logical not to increase staic load then ,at least to me.

the hustling and relying of the front end grip is also something of Alonsos style.
I rmember Renault having dramatic rearward bias in the michelin times compared to others and still it worked for him as can be seen in two Championships ..whereas the other michelin runners used a more forward bias ,it worked,yes, but it did not yield the advantage Renault held in these years.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Marcush

Apologies I meant the reverse of what I posted! heavy night last night!

Rear biased weight distribution will of course lead to the oversteer schumi craves.
At present it understeers Im sure we all agree. The Problem Mercedes have is the MGP001 appears to have very tight packaging at the rear. So its a case of redressing the balance issues the have. Im hopeful as a Mercedes fan that brawn has already got a plan to sort it out.
But if I had to decide I would can 2010, and focus on 2011. Red Bull are just miles ahead.

[marcush.]

pity I would have loved to go on over this a bit longer as surely there is someone who could make a point here why more static to the front might actually help?
Very rarely decisions in this area are totally clear and straightforward ...surely Brawns boffins are in a much better situation than us to decide in which direction to go ,but this seems worrying as they have not yet done so...which birng su p the question: why???
assuming our friend here ,F1eng ,is working there .. I feel they all seem to like to
stick to what the calculation and sims say ..and shy away from fundamental changes .
to my understanding this attidude is wrong as soon as your steps of change do not solve the problems or you are adjusting the wrong parameters.
Say if your problem is a lack of downforce ,you could turn high speed adjusters on your dampers all day long but still that would not cure the problem...

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Marcush

One thing you can toy with is the camber.

I have notice the Mercedes lifting its unloaded front tyre too, indicating seriously stiff front suspension set up.

The two are linked but what difference will it make?
Mercedes have already made mention of the contact patch being smaller at the front, but part of this is also due to the extreme camber they are running at the front. This means the contact patch is smaller right?

The whole front end of the car does not "look" right. It appears too bulky and hasnt the same developed look as that of the Red Bull or Ferrari. There were rumours prior to Bahrain that they were going to use a new nose design but so far that has failed to materialise.
Does anyone know if there are updates for Oz?

If not another lower end points finsih is all Mercedes can realistically expect...

[autogyro]

IMO the main problem is the extra fuel load and the need to maintain an even ride height through out the race.
Both Merc and McLaren seem to have very hard suspension and I think this is to reduce variations in ride height.
The result is a car difficult to set up and drive.
Red Bull have been developing a ride height system through last year and this year it is brilliant. Unless the others catch up in this area RB will maintain an advantage made wider by the larger fuel load.
The team I cannot work out in regard to pace in Bahrain is the Ferrari.
Something going on there I think.

[Scotracer]

not good on aero dynamics concept though. but by looking at top speed. clearly merc is not up to the challenge. I was concern about its nose its still more focus in curving downward, can they just adopt the nose designed by redbull, ferari or maclaren? I believe their merc nose designs is what creating the drag so much. can they just adapt the nose concept of the top team. where it has a designs where it can let the drag flow in the car more smoothly rather than letting the nose have it sliced the drag.
as the nose slices the air most of the air passes on the top side of the nose thereby pushing the front down more, resulting to adding too much pressure on the front tyre.
I am looking forward on a rectify designs of the GP W01 nose. by far its the only designs I believe that should be corrected.

If it were that obvious and simple that nose would never have been run. Arm-chair engineering no worky.

Oh and the W01 was just as fast as the Red Bull in the speed trap.

[marcush.]

Marcush

One thing you can toy with is the camber.

I have notice the Mercedes lifting its unloaded front tyre too, indicating seriously stiff front suspension set up.

The two are linked but what difference will it make?
Mercedes have already made mention of the contact patch being smaller at the front, but part of this is also due to the extreme camber they are running at the front. This means the contact patch is smaller right?

The whole front end of the car does not "look" right. It appears too bulky and hasnt the same developed look as that of the Red Bull or Ferrari. There were rumours prior to Bahrain that they were going to use a new nose design but so far that has failed to materialise.
Does anyone know if there are updates for Oz?

If not another lower end points finsih is all Mercedes can realistically expect...

you can toy with a lot of things to help make the tyres work.Weight distribution is
A STRONG MEANS of changing tyre behaviour for the lower and medium speeds
Downforce is a strong means for the upper end of the speed envelope.

with camber you will of course alter contact patch shape but i can´t see how theres much to gain in actual size of the patch ..you will have work to get the contact patches to the max ..that is the objective...it is rather easy to get the outside correct but for the inside tyre you need to play ackerman ,kingpin inclination ,toe and cambercurves as well as roll ..be it body or tyre roll..but trying to get something from there when something else is fundamentally wrong..will not give you the desrired results...see :hard springs ...hopping cars...