Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[ripper]

A very good move for both. Sauber can reduce costs even more and even if the engine won't be the best next year it won't change anything for them, while Honda gets double data.

[wuzak]

A very good move for both. Sauber can reduce costs even more and even if the engine won't be the best next year it won't change anything for them, while Honda gets double data.

Unless Honda are giving it to them for free, I don't see how it really helps Sauber.

[Rudex]

Now the problem with vibrations is from gearbox??.

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... &sandbox=1

F1 Topic: Honda PU, the main cause of the vibration problem is McLaren's gearbox?
March 30, 2017

To Honda's power unit, there are vibrations with the power shortage, lack of reliability, and improvement request from the driver. This is not a story started in the Australian Grand Prix, but from the end of February to the early March tests, drivers have been dissatisfied.

Initially, this vibration was thought to be generated by the power unit body. That's because Honda has designed a different combustion chamber this season. This new combustion chamber is said to be Turbulent Jet Ignition (TJI), and it seemed that the vibration was increased by the huge explosive power.

Yusuke Hasegawa Yoshihisa Honda F1 general manager said, "There is no recognition that the vibration has increased due to engine performance enhancement," said the vibration is not derived from a new combustion chamber.

So the next possible cause was whether it was a new layout that put the turbo and the compressor out of the V bank angle. However, Hasegawa General Manager also declined this once and for all.

In addition, Masato Hasegawa's problem of mapping is said to be "considerably better from the test". Nevertheless, in the Australian Grand Prix, "It is still said from the driver that there is" oscillation (resonance). "In fact, vibrations (vibrations) being said altogether are just this post shift oscillation (Resonance immediately after shift change) "

The identity of this vibration is thought to be caused by the resonance including the driving system of the engine, the gear box, the tribe shaft and the vibration of the tire. In other words, it was not generated by PU alone.

Furthermore, post-shift oscillation means that the vibration of the gearbox is the main cause of resonance, even though it occurs just after the shift change. Hasegawa, general manager, also said, "It is particularly big when shifting up."

The current F1 gearbox uses a seamless shift. The normal gear change process is the former stage out gear → neutral → next stage in gear, but the seamless shift is a system in which the transmission torque loss time is zero at the time of upshifting by setting the next in-gear gear to the front-end out gear, the effect of 0.4 seconds reduction per lap It is said. This was introduced for the first time in the F1 world, in fact it was a story of the era when it was supplying with BAR to the engine in 2005 at Honda.

In other words, "His post-shift oscillation", the general manager of Hasegawa said that the vibration called "guts, guts" of the shift-up of the seamless shift is caused by resonance with the vibration of Honda's PU Become.

Of course, because it is resonance, even by adjusting the mapping on the Honda side, it is possible to relax some of the vibration. However, if the source of the vibration is in a seamless shift, it will not be a fundamental solution unless McLaren's gearbox is improved.

In Australia's paddock, during the season McLaren was whispered to cancel the contract by paying a penalty to Honda. In that case, McLaren will supply the gearbox to Sauber receiving supply of gearbox from Ferrari, he says.

If this rumor is true, even in Sauber which switches to Honda, the problem of resonance will occur. How much does Sauber know about that?

[Singabule]

BAR honda create their own gearbox? How long would be taken to redesigned gearbox? I think this is due to weight saving, as MCL 32 employ much of ballast.

[etusch]

A very good move for both. Sauber can reduce costs even more and even if the engine won't be the best next year it won't change anything for them, while Honda gets double data.

Unless Honda are giving it to them for free, I don't see how it really helps Sauber.

May be half of problems because of mclaren car who knows. May be they put it in the car and some problems gone doing nothing else

[ripper]

A very good move for both. Sauber can reduce costs even more and even if the engine won't be the best next year it won't change anything for them, while Honda gets double data.

Unless Honda are giving it to them for free, I don't see how it really helps Sauber.

I suppose they are switching supplier in order to reduce costs.

Even if next year Honda PU won't be as powerful as the others will be still probabily better that Ferrari 2016 one. Even if it is a bad PU they will be exactly where they are now: last, but at least the will save some million €.

Even better if they get engines for free or they get some money from sponsorship.

[wuzak]

A very good move for both. Sauber can reduce costs even more and even if the engine won't be the best next year it won't change anything for them, while Honda gets double data.

Unless Honda are giving it to them for free, I don't see how it really helps Sauber.

I suppose they are switching supplier in order to reduce costs.

Even if next year Honda PU won't be as powerful as the others will be still probabily better that Ferrari 2016 one. Even if it is a bad PU they will be exactly where they are now: last, but at least the will save some million €.

Even better if they get engines for free or they get some money from sponsorship.

Assuming that if Sauber were to remain with Ferrari they would keep this year's power unit?

In 2018 they could use the 2017 Ferrari PU at a discount, and that could, quite possibly, still be better than the Honda 2018 unit. Or their finances may have recovered enough to afford the full 2018 unit.

I can't see how using the 2018 Honda PU would be cheaper than a 2016 or 2017 Ferrari PU. Or significantly cheaper than the 2018 Ferrari PU.

Regarding sponsorship, I can't see how Honda would do that without reducing their substantial contribution to McLaren. As for other sponsors, having Honda and Alonso on board hasn't exactly helped McLaren secure other big sponsorship deals.

[toraabe]

Now the problem with vibrations is from gearbox??.

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... &sandbox=1

F1 Topic: Honda PU, the main cause of the vibration problem is McLaren's gearbox?
March 30, 2017

To Honda's power unit, there are vibrations with the power shortage, lack of reliability, and improvement request from the driver. This is not a story started in the Australian Grand Prix, but from the end of February to the early March tests, drivers have been dissatisfied.

Initially, this vibration was thought to be generated by the power unit body. That's because Honda has designed a different combustion chamber this season. This new combustion chamber is said to be Turbulent Jet Ignition (TJI), and it seemed that the vibration was increased by the huge explosive power.

Yusuke Hasegawa Yoshihisa Honda F1 general manager said, "There is no recognition that the vibration has increased due to engine performance enhancement," said the vibration is not derived from a new combustion chamber.

So the next possible cause was whether it was a new layout that put the turbo and the compressor out of the V bank angle. However, Hasegawa General Manager also declined this once and for all.

In addition, Masato Hasegawa's problem of mapping is said to be "considerably better from the test". Nevertheless, in the Australian Grand Prix, "It is still said from the driver that there is" oscillation (resonance). "In fact, vibrations (vibrations) being said altogether are just this post shift oscillation (Resonance immediately after shift change) "

The identity of this vibration is thought to be caused by the resonance including the driving system of the engine, the gear box, the tribe shaft and the vibration of the tire. In other words, it was not generated by PU alone.

Furthermore, post-shift oscillation means that the vibration of the gearbox is the main cause of resonance, even though it occurs just after the shift change. Hasegawa, general manager, also said, "It is particularly big when shifting up."

The current F1 gearbox uses a seamless shift. The normal gear change process is the former stage out gear → neutral → next stage in gear, but the seamless shift is a system in which the transmission torque loss time is zero at the time of upshifting by setting the next in-gear gear to the front-end out gear, the effect of 0.4 seconds reduction per lap It is said. This was introduced for the first time in the F1 world, in fact it was a story of the era when it was supplying with BAR to the engine in 2005 at Honda.

In other words, "His post-shift oscillation", the general manager of Hasegawa said that the vibration called "guts, guts" of the shift-up of the seamless shift is caused by resonance with the vibration of Honda's PU Become.

Of course, because it is resonance, even by adjusting the mapping on the Honda side, it is possible to relax some of the vibration. However, if the source of the vibration is in a seamless shift, it will not be a fundamental solution unless McLaren's gearbox is improved.

In Australia's paddock, during the season McLaren was whispered to cancel the contract by paying a penalty to Honda. In that case, McLaren will supply the gearbox to Sauber receiving supply of gearbox from Ferrari, he says.

If this rumor is true, even in Sauber which switches to Honda, the problem of resonance will occur. How much does Sauber know about that?

As I have said before. Flexing driveshafts both from engine into the gearbox, and after the diff.
I am sure that is is the Mc Laren gearbox that has to be redesigned..

[Lucky]

As I have said before. Flexing driveshafts both from engine into the gearbox, and after the diff.
I am sure that is is the Mc Laren gearbox that has to be redesigned..

Hasegawa: It was not only a problem with the engine itself, although the thing vibrating the most was the engine.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... 85008/?s=1

[Big Mangalhit]

Unless Honda are giving it to them for free, I don't see how it really helps Sauber.

I suppose they are switching supplier in order to reduce costs.

Even if next year Honda PU won't be as powerful as the others will be still probabily better that Ferrari 2016 one. Even if it is a bad PU they will be exactly where they are now: last, but at least the will save some million €.

Even better if they get engines for free or they get some money from sponsorship.

Assuming that if Sauber were to remain with Ferrari they would keep this year's power unit?

In 2018 they could use the 2017 Ferrari PU at a discount, and that could, quite possibly, still be better than the Honda 2018 unit. Or their finances may have recovered enough to afford the full 2018 unit.

I can't see how using the 2018 Honda PU would be cheaper than a 2016 or 2017 Ferrari PU. Or significantly cheaper than the 2018 Ferrari PU.

Regarding sponsorship, I can't see how Honda would do that without reducing their substantial contribution to McLaren. As for other sponsors, having Honda and Alonso on board hasn't exactly helped McLaren secure other big sponsorship deals.

I totally agree. The reason sauber said they were going to use the 2016 PU was that they wanted to save money and nor do a big overhaul in the engine bay so they focus the money on aero and not on integration. Changing for a different PU would require lots of money to redesign everything, they might as well do it for the modern Ferrari PU instead.

Also I imagine they have contract with Ferrari, if they change PU mid year they probably need to pay Ferrari anyway.

I can't see that happening unless Honda would bankroll Sauber (which I think Honda has better places to invest money atm) or the change is for next year and Sauber could save some money and roll the dices with the Honda PU.

It is also possible that the true reason Sauber is using an old PU is because Ferrari would not want the manufacturing nightmares of a third team and would want to focus on them and a B team (Haas), this could lead to Sauber being forced to find somebody else for a updated PU. (totally speculative)

[etusch]

Do you think that Honda just says use my engine in same price with ferrari in current situation? They must offer something to atract the teams using Honda PU .
Don't you think that ferrari and merc engines reach end of their potential? May be they will try to use same architecture for next year too and they will realize at tests that Honda and Renault has more power on PU Which are switch New architecture this year.

[GoranF1]

It looks like ERS is the problem again?

https://twitter.com/andrewbensonf1/stat ... 4803444738

[FW17]

There short and thick methodology not working, what a surprise.

[godlameroso]

This was expected, seems they can't harvest enough electrical energy, just like in 2015. Makes sense, it was mentioned one of the problems was lack of energy to drive the turbine, due to the TJI allowing more heat dilution.

China only has one long straight though, the other DRS zone is kind of short.

From turn 3-6 not too long, from 10-11 again, then the big long straight, short straight then pit straight.

[dren]

As I have said before. Flexing driveshafts both from engine into the gearbox, and after the diff.
I am sure that is is the Mc Laren gearbox that has to be redesigned..

Hasegawa: It was not only a problem with the engine itself, although the thing vibrating the most was the engine.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... 85008/?s=1

The energy for the vibrations has to come from somewhere, which is the PU. It sounds like the transmission and post drive train is magnifying the vibrations, resonant frequencies.

The odd sounds are mapping to get out of those frequencies after the upshift.