Alguersuari and Buemi were better than their replacements?

[Red Schneider]

Does anyone agree that driver stability would help development somewhat??

I agree. The question is, is that a net benefit to Red Bull's overall plan? Is their search for the new Vettel compromised if they finish 9th in the Constructors' as opposed to 7th? I argue no.

I don't think this is about making Toro Rosso go faster. 80% of that is probably down to the non-driver portion of the team anyway.

[rayden]

Ricciardo is definitely starting to look the business.

Not something he has in black & white yet though.

laptime charts are useless for comparing team mates though, witht he tyres the way they are at the moment, no one is ever going at 10/10ths in the race... not to mention traffic etc.

there very little context given with that data, like diffferent stratergies, accidents etc.

[raymondu999]

Ah, but the key question to ask, based on said laptime charts is how the drivers are maximising their cars, not how quick they are. Sure no one is pushing 10/10ths - but some are still able to make tyres last longer than their teammates. That's what you need to look out for.

[Nando]

laptime charts are useless for comparing team mates though, witht he tyres the way they are at the moment, no one is ever going at 10/10ths in the race... not to mention traffic etc.

there very little context given with that data, like diffferent stratergies, accidents etc.

I agree somewhat. Thankfully this isn´t laptime charts but POSITION charts which show what your position was when the race started, where you go after the start and where you end up.

It shows that over 6-7 races, Vergne has started behind Ricciardo but ended the race in front of him.
This means that one driver almost goes backwards. This isn´t a different strategy as well, Vergne gambled in Monaco for example.

This is purely down to the team and driver and right now, where it counts, Vergne is doing a very good job relative to his teammate.

[PlatinumZealot]

Ricciardo is overrated. Given his time at HRT he should be streets ahead of Vergne in the race craft departmenat. And make no mistake Verge is horrible at race craft.

[Cam]

After Ricciardo made 9th in the Autosport top 10 f1 drivers list and the general consensus that the 2012 TR was awful with many saying at Ricciardo punched above his weight, just wondering if you're still standing by you're original thread statement and last post - now you've had time for quiet contemplation and reflection?

[Nando]

I assume Vergne tipped him by being placed 8th? If he´s lower then Ricciardo i might just stop listening to AS.

Everytime Ricciardo tried to catch up to Vergne, Vergne just added some more points on the table.
Ricciardo might be better in Qualifying but he´s definitely not better in races.

[Cam]

Tough crowd, especially since most on here bellow that the points didn't reflect the real on track results. So points are all that matter now?

From AutoSport

Everything's light to the touch with Danny and it's misleading. The laughing, smiling demeanour can make it seem like he's not serious or focused, the smooth inputs in the car can make it appear like he's not on the edge. But both impressions would be wrong.

Ricciardo absolutely wrung the neck of a less-than-great Toro Rosso this year and into the latter half of the season regularly backed that up with tough, relentless race performances that got him into the points.

Unlike a Sergio Perez or a Romain Grosjean he was not super-strong for four or five races but missing in action or a liability in many of the others; once he got his head around what the tyres required of him he was always maximising what was at his disposal.

[Nando]

Vegne also had a lot of bad luck, they both did frankly but at the end of the day, throughout the whole season, Vergne was one step ahead in the races getting the points.

I´m not saying Ricciardo is overrated, far from it, i think both a very good drivers that were handed a dog.
Ricci held his own in Qualifying but Vergne helds his in races.

Vergne completed only 11 races compared to Ricci´s 15.
That´s 4 full races of having the opportunity to get at least 1 point.

Position change on lap 1,

+0.85 average - +17 total - Vergne
-0.10 average - -2 total - Ricci

Accidents and Technical failures,

1 accident, no technical failures - Ricci
3 accident, 1 technical failure - Vergne

Penalties

1 Qualifying - Ricci
2 Qualifying, 1 drive-through - Vergne

Driver form,

Vergne took four 8th places
Ricciardo took not one 8th place. (four 9th places is his best result over the season)


He was better in Qualifying but never really translated that into the race in terms of getting vital points compared to Vergne.

[Cam]

@Nando - I respectfully suggest you may be missing the forest for the trees. Let me see if I can convince you.

Torro Rosso is a grooming school, correct? Red Bull are looking to fill Webbers seat at some point in the near future, correct? Red Bull need a fast, young, reliable driver to back up Vettel, correct?

Red Bull know he's fast:
• topping the 2009 young drivers' test at Jerez in the RB5
• 2010 young drivers' test is where he set an all-new lap record at the wheel of Sebastian Vettel's championship-winning RB6, eclipsing the pole time set the previous weekend.

So all he has to do is prove he can keep an F1 car on the track, bring it home consistently, learn, develop his skills and give good feedback to develop the car.

Franz Tost:

Since the summer break, both drivers have scored more points and everyone in the team has been impressed with their maturity in terms of working with the engineers and their racecraft on track. We will be doing our best in the next few months to produce a 2013 car which will allow them to demonstrate their talent.

His race pace is explainable. 2012 has been measured to ensure he gets the maximum miles and gets it home - and I daresay that is all Red Bull expected of him this year. When I personally put his raw pace together with his consistency - I see a perfect number 2 for the Red Bull - something both Alguersuari and Buemi failed to do IMO.

[FoxHound]

What of Felix Da Costa?

I personally think that his performances in the lower formula has turned the screw pressure wise on the current incumbents at Torro Rosso.
There could be an instance at the halfway point next year where Torro Rosso start getting trigger happy and one of these 2 makes way for Da Costa. It's happened before at this very team.
A shame for whichever of vergne or Ricciardo would potentially make way, but it's the nature of the beast.

[Nando]

Da Costa is the guy who will replace Webber.

Both Vergne and Ricci are good but not superstars, Da Costa is the only guy i can see that has something special.

@Cam - That´s great but points are awarded on Sundays, if he gets beaten again by Vergne next year he´s done.
Imagine Vergne solving his Qualifying problems, things will get real interesting then.

[Cam]

Da Costa is the guy who will replace Webber.

Not likely -

Toro Rosso’s mission is to nurture young Red Bull talents to make them fit for Red Bull Racing. And if Mark should decide to finish his career then we need to be able to hand them over a driver that we’ve brought up to the level of being a race winner.

So that's a Torro Rosso driver that will replace Mark when the time comes.

@Cam - That´s great but points are awarded on Sundays, if he gets beaten again by Vergne next year he´s done. Imagine Vergne solving his Qualifying problems, things will get real interesting then.

Again, you're not using the same measuring tools that Red Bull are - and have clearly stated:

Number-one spot on this agenda is cooperation with the engineers. But a race weekend is not only about racing, it’s also about the interaction with the media, sponsor relations and marketing commitments..... how to adapt to a new race track.....with particular focus on the competitiveness of our drivers in terms of qualifying, race and simulator performance.

Never have Red Bull or Torro Rosso claimed points were the goals. In fact, when you look at the stated items they look for, it's clear growth and development is key over a period of time, not points. So I'm baffled as to why you keep bringing this up. Perhaps you can show evidence otherwise as I can't find anything that substantiates points based results being key, or that anyone other than a Torro Rosso driver to fill any seat in Red Bull.

And just to back that up:

What I do expect from both is that they deliver solid performances. This means that they have to improve. I don’t necessarily mean that they must score points… unless we’ve built a winning car!

All quotes from here: http://www.formula1.com/news/interviews ... 13020.html

[Nando]

Let me re-phrase it, Da Costa is the most likely contender for the RBR seat.
If he has to go through STR then he will do just that, i don´t see either Ricci or Vergne getting a Red Bull seat anytime soon.
To me they are Jamie and Sebastien but with new faces and arguably better drivers. But nothing "wow" about them,

I´m positive they want another Vettel (who will probably jump ship when the times comes)
Webber isn´t done yet.

"with particular focus on the competitiveness of our drivers in terms of qualifying, race and simulator performance."

That´s great but it still doesn´t put Ricci above Vergne in any way, all he´s done is qualifyi better then fell back in races.
You don´t know if Vergne is better with his engineers, if he´s thinking about the race instead of qualifying and thus sacrifice some of that.

You seem so persistent that Ricciardo is the second coming of Jesus.
Nothing has pointed to that.

You keep showing an article from AS saying Ricci punched above his weight. Now that is something that has no weight.

Great quotes but they don´t say anything that would put Ricci ahead of Vergne in any way.

[Cam]

@Nando - actually, my original question was pointed at @n smikle (if you have a second look) - who I note has been quite silent on the subject.

You suggested points alone would make the difference, I counted that with evidence that it wouldn't - you haven't acknowledged that evidence at all. You have now suggested that I "seem so persistent that Ricciardo is the second coming of Jesus". Nowhere have I said that, only that based on Red Bulls own criteria for success and of that of selected media opinion, Ricciardo appears to have met that. You have also now suggested that AutoSport "is something that has no weight" - which many would agree is arguably one of the finest and most well respected sources of F1 news and information.

Usually I appreciate your candor Nando, but in this instance, your lack of acknowledging stated facts, putting words into my mouth and denigrating an esteemed publication - has shown some sides that surprise me. It's clear we cannot have a frank and open discussion on this topic.

I'm out. Let's agree to disagree.