Fernando Fernando!!!

[mcdenife]

Yes he had problems, but with maybe the exception of Canada where he crashed, I fail to see how you can say Kimi profited from them. That implies that Alonso would otherwise have won had he not had the problems does it not? I know u are an Alonso or renault fan, but be fair and reasonable. Yes they were both unlucky a number of times which should not take anything away from the other. But whether u like him or not, we can say for a FACT that 3 of Alonso's wins were gifted by Kimi retiring from the lead of a GP but you cannot FACTUALLY claim that Alonso gifted Kimi 3 wins because:
1) he didnt retire from the lead
2) in 2 cases he was not even ahead nor was he as fast
3) In the 3rd case - japan

And there is nothing you or I can say/disagree/argue about that will cause confrontation between those 2. We are merely spectators. For all we know they both might be the best of friends who sit down together, read these forums and laugh at our ignorant discussions about 2 people we nothing about on a personal level.

[manchild]

Perhaps I shouldn’t have used the term “due to”, so I apologize for that. As I’ve already said they both profited from problems of other one on almost identical number of races – I think this better describes it.

In Monaco Renault had serious technical problems with tyres and fact that Kimi had pole doesn’t necessary mean that Alonso wouldn’t win or at least finish 2nd as well as in other 3 cases which would mean that he’d won championship in Turkey or Monza. Alonso qualified, started the race and drove with car in with tyre problems.

We agreed about Canada as pure profit for Kimi.

In Hungary Alonso’s car was heavily damaged at the very first entry in turn 1 by Ralf’s Toyota – Alonso was practically driving very crippled car 99.99% of the race.

In Japan it was not technical problem but it prevented good technical condition and performance of the car to get proper place on the podium.

What I’m trying to say is that on some races both of them got lucky in a way that other had problems, mostly technical. Fact that on some races Alonso managed to finish despite technical problems doesn’t mean that Kimi didn’t profited from that – when the car is in technical problems it isn’t competitive regardless if it finishes the race or not.

Loosen hose, disintegrating tyres, blown engine or damaged aero for example are all benefits for the opposite driver regardless that some only slow the car down and that some put it out of race. Fact that most of Kimi’s problems occurred instantly and took him out of the race can’t be considered separately or given grater importance just because they were more spectacular and sudden than Alonsos’s problems.

[Hudsonhawk]

Manchild

There is no point in worrying about Kimi's fotunes as he is not WC and like you said no one will remember Kimi's year. They will remember Alonso's and how he won in a year where he didnt have the fastest cars and how he (so far) won the WC with less wins than another driver ?!?! A win in China will restore some pride for him, but i feel for him if Kimi gets up ?!?! He won the title with a conservative car, nothing wrong with it as he ios the one with the title.

I wonder who would be WC under the old regime of point scoring.....hmmmm, but anyway...this is 2005. Its about Alonso.

Bottom line is he is WC.....even if other see him as lucky who cares......he has the title. We all have valid point.......

Later

[Guest]

We agreed about Canada as pure profit for Kimi.

We agreed nothing. I said 'MAYBE you can say'. Cos in truth it was not a gift, Alonso crashed, period. The how or why of the crash is another story.

Fact that on some races Alonso managed to finish despite technical problems doesn’t mean that Kimi didn’t profited from that – when the car is in technical problems it isn’t competitive regardless if it finishes the race or not.

Well I can say, with or without Alonso's problems Kimi DID not profit for reasons I mentioned before. Everything else is just 'ifs and buts'. Unless you can show me how Alonso would have won in those circumstances or isnt that what we are talking about, being gifted a win?

Fact that most of Kimi’s problems occurred instantly and took him out of the race can’t be considered separately or given grater importance just because they were more spectacular and sudden than Alonsos’s problems.

The fact that Alonso was gifted has nothing to do with how spectacular they were. Its more to do with when, where (and maybe how).

In the end I think the point is this, why does is matter to you how many wins Kimi gifted Alonso. If you are a fan of his, what should matter is who won the wdc, cos gifted or not, nobody can claim he is an 'accidental' wdc.

[manchild]

We agreed nothing. I said 'MAYBE you can say'. Cos in truth it was not a gift, Alonso crashed, period. The how or why of the crash is another story.

Ok, than let me say several stupid things:

- Alonso wasn't lucky when Kimi's crashed in Nurbugring and he won due to his driving technique and superior performance.

- Kimi wasn’t lucky at all and won in Canada due to his driving technique and performance.

- Alonso’s crash and Fisichella’s retirement due to pressure problems didn’t help Kimi to win even though both of them were in front him and with superior car.

- Alonso wasn't lucky when Kimi's car broke down in Hockenheim and he won due to his driving technique and superior performance.

…
All I'm saying is that Kimi’s problems helped Alonso a win in Nurburgring and that Alonso’s problems helped Kimi to win in Canada - to me this sounds fair and impartial as universal method for judgment.

Well I can say, with or without Alonso's problems Kimi DID not profit for reasons I mentioned before. Everything else is just 'ifs and buts'. Unless you can show me how Alonso would have won in those circumstances or isnt that what we are talking about, being gifted a win?

Not gifted, I never said gifted I said profited from problems of the other driver since driver with problems didn't represent threat and when I say that I think on both of them in specific situations.

[Hudsonhawk]

http://www.sportinglife.com/formula1/ne ... ntoya.html

Just to support what i said in my post. I rest my case over a team mate being faster than another.

[manchild]

Fernano is on these pics so I guess they are not off topic



He seams impressed





The winner takes it all