Was Verstappen's 5 Second Penalty Fair?

[santos]

*cough cough* SENNA *cough cough*

would anybody here ever claim Senna killed racing? don't think so.

FIA's inconsistancy is killing racing.
FIA's favouring Ferrari is killing racing.
FIA's silly tracks is killing racing.
FIA's embarassing steward Connelly is killing racing.
FIA's charlie whiting is killing racing.

guess what the above 5 have in common: FIA is killing racing.

A little reminder.
FERRARI's Vettel in race 1 was way outside of the track starting 'box'. UNPENALIZED.
FERRARI's Vettel in baku delibaretly slammed into Hamilton. INSUFFICIENTLY PENALIZED
FERRARI's Vettel then under immense pressure got a tribunal hearing. UNPENALIZED
FERRARI's Kimi Raikkonen went outside track limits several times during the USA GP UNPENALIZED
FERRARI's Vettel in Mexico 2016 was 'HASTELY' thrown at the podium [and Max quickly removed backstage] despite his driving. PENALIZED FAR LATER*
FERRARI's Kimi Raikkonen in USA GP 2017 was HASTELY thrown at the podium [and Max quickly removed] DESPITE NORMALLY VERDICT COMES POST-GP

* same steward responsible as in USA 2017. coincidence? NO.

Let's just think about it for one more time.

Mexico 2016 GP. Conelly same steward was responsible for getting Max Verstappen OFF the podium and giving him a 10-second penalty SO A FERRARI DRIVER CAN GET ON THE PODIUM. That very same ferrari driver then, way after the race, was handed out a deserving penalty and got a 10-sec penalty aswell. this has been seen in the same moment max was judged.. but Daniel Ricciardo was NOT hasted on to the podium in the way FERRARI's vettel was quickly thrown on the podium.

USA 2017 GP. Conelly SAME STEWARD was responsible for getting Max Verstappen OFF the podium AGAIN and giving him a 5-second penalty in the last SECONDS of the GP in the LAST LAP, SO A FERRARI DRIVER CAN GET ON THE PODIUM. Normally, such an incident is first NOTED. Then, gets UNDER INVESTIGATION. then, when all has been judged, a VERDICT is given. this does NOT ever happen in the last SECONDS after nearly the last corner of a GP.
this will happen POST-RACE in EVERY single circumstance, exactly like how VETTEL was penalized AFTER the race in Mexico 2016. YET, a penalty was given whilst Max
was backstage and A FERARRI DRIVER was hastedly put on podium.

there is no dancing around it, there is no denying it, this is the d*mn fact.

FIA undeniably favours FERRARI.

i know there are blunt-headed pink glasses wearing people that can not see and don't want to see any critisims about the reds, and can only point to others and it's never ferrari.
but even stevie wonder can see how unfair and biased FIA's decision was.

The problem is corruption in the FIA, and the biggest crook of them all is Charlie Whiting.
If we ever want to see F1 advance and be great again, he needs to go, just like Bernie HAD to go.
additionally, Connelly already had to be removed from position after last year's Japan embarassment.

it's a complete facade.

All i can say about this is: LOL

[wesley123]

A little reminder.
FERRARI's Vettel in race 1 was way outside of the track starting 'box'. UNPENALIZED.

Considering the measurement systems in place, I sincerely doubt that to be the case.

And unless you aren't supposed to be in the box, Vettel was in the correct position.

FERRARI's Vettel in baku delibaretly slammed into Hamilton. INSUFFICIENTLY PENALIZED

Your opinion on the subject is subjective and not your decision to make

FERRARI's Vettel then under immense pressure got a tribunal hearing. UNPENALIZED

After which point most people will consider that their view might be wrong.

FERRARI's Kimi Raikkonen went outside track limits several times during the USA GP UNPENALIZED

Like everyone else.

FERRARI's Vettel in Mexico 2016 was 'HASTELY' thrown at the podium [and Max quickly removed backstage] despite his driving. PENALIZED FAR LATER*
FERRARI's Kimi Raikkonen in USA GP 2017 was HASTELY thrown at the podium [and Max quickly removed] DESPITE NORMALLY VERDICT COMES POST-GP
* same steward responsible as in USA 2017. coincidence? NO.

So now it suddenly is wrong when they do punish someone? And coincidence has got nothing to do with it.

Mexico 2016 GP. Conelly same steward was responsible for getting Max Verstappen OFF the podium and giving him a 10-second penalty SO A FERRARI DRIVER CAN GET ON THE PODIUM. That very same ferrari driver then, way after the race, was handed out a deserving penalty and got a 10-sec penalty aswell. this has been seen in the same moment max was judged.. but Daniel Ricciardo was NOT hasted on to the podium in the way FERRARI's vettel was quickly thrown on the podium.

USA 2017 GP. Conelly SAME STEWARD was responsible for getting Max Verstappen OFF the podium AGAIN and giving him a 5-second penalty in the last SECONDS of the GP in the LAST LAP, SO A FERRARI DRIVER CAN GET ON THE PODIUM. Normally, such an incident is first NOTED. Then, gets UNDER INVESTIGATION. then, when all has been judged, a VERDICT is given. this does NOT ever happen in the last SECONDS after nearly the last corner of a GP.
this will happen POST-RACE in EVERY single circumstance, exactly like how VETTEL was penalized AFTER the race in Mexico 2016. YET, a penalty was given whilst Max
was backstage and A FERARRI DRIVER was hastedly put on podium.

there is no dancing around it, there is no denying it, this is the d*mn fact.

FIA undeniably favours FERRARI.

Wait, so your "FIArrari" is based solely on that Max got demoted twice?

i know there are blunt-headed pink glasses wearing people that can not see and don't want to see any critisims about the reds, and can only point to others and it's never ferrari.

Yes, everyone is wrong except from you.

Just out of interest, what rules has Ferrari broken for which they aren't -and no, you thinking "x is unfair!" doesn't count- punished?

but even stevie wonder can see how unfair and biased FIA's decision was.

Wait, so you think that someone getting punished for breaking a rule is unfair?

The problem is corruption in the FIA, and the biggest crook of them all is Charlie Whiting.
If we ever want to see F1 advance and be great again, he needs to go, just like Bernie HAD to go.
additionally, Connelly already had to be removed from position after last year's Japan embarassment.

it's a complete facade.

And all because Max got penalized for breaking a rule which you acknowledged he did? That's a bit of an overreaction isn't it?

[santos]

And... Vettel, wrote a letter to Charlie and apologized for the comments that he made. At least he showed some manners. Max said he won't apologize for calling idiot to the steward. I lke is driving, but as a person... he's a arrogant and a rude child. And he's comments at the end of the race... they didn't do any sense at all, and wasn't good for F1. Specially to Liberty Media...

[sosic2121]

Max is a bully.
For every decision that goes against him, (or looks like is going against him, like in Mexico 2016 where RB played dirty and abused the system), there is at least 5 situations that goes in his favor.

This is NOT the first time Max made his overtake outside the track. actually it 3rd time that I know of. (2016 Austria and Germany)
He also has a long history of pushing other people off track, yet only time incident like that was investigated was 2016 Germany when he was pushed off by Rosberg.
He also has long history of moving under braking, and changing direction, with zero penalties awarded (Hungary, Spa, Germany...)
He has ruined so many races, ruined so many great overtakes (Hungary).
Basically F1 with Max lost more than it gained, but that is not important. It is important whom has Jos phoned.

[Phil]

I want less penalties in general. Imagine drivers receiving time penalties on a regular basis because they lost it some place or whatever. People need to think hard about what kind of racing they really want. You can't have everything. Either you have boring races where every driver is afraid to push limits or go for gaps because there might be a potential penalty waiting or you have a bit more freedom at the expense that every now and then, a steward gets it wrong or a driver gets off without punishment.

I'm not sure as of when this discussion headed in the direction that we need tracking sensors and what not. Less "micro managing" is a good thing.

And having characters like Max in the sport is a good thing too. He's driving more "Man" like than many others who are tip-toeing around the circuit in a gentlemen fashion. How boring would that be? In that sense, I even appreciate the fact that Vettel had an outburst of rage in Baku. Quite frankly, I still find it amazing he didn't get black flagged for it, but I'm actually glad he showed the human inside of him. And I definitely appreciate Max for having the balls to attempt an overtake where 99.9% of the grid wouldn't.

[Steven]

Not ashamed to repeat myself, but on the back of Phil's argument, I would like to say that I think a solution is actually reasonably simple.

I think F1 needs to get rid of the completely flat kerbs. What is needed is kerbs that are sloping upwards. Gentle enough to not completely launch a car off in the air if one would cross them perpendicularly, but high enough so that the car is lifted a bit and hence drops downforce generated by the floor.

A good type of kerb would be what we had at Spa-Francorchamps, for example in 2001. (please check the clip, amazing racing, BMW power . The kerbs out of Les Combes, at Bruxelles (check the gravel on the outside of the corner), the subsequent left hander and pouhon are great examples of how it could be better.



10 years before that, the kerbs were even much higher, and for slower corners, I would also highly recommend this on the inside of the corner.

To me, this is the only proper solution to the problem, one that fans can accept, and one that is the same for everyone. No fancy electronics needed to enforce track limits.

A higher kerb on the inside of turn 19 would have prevented people from just cutting the corner. To me, that's unacceptable, but as the tracks are today, impossible to enforce consistently.

[Manoah2u]

Max is a bully.
For every decision that goes against him, (or looks like is going against him, like in Mexico 2016 where RB played dirty and abused the system), there is at least 5 situations that goes in his favor.

This is NOT the first time Max made his overtake outside the track. actually it 3rd time that I know of. (2016 Austria and Germany)
He also has a long history of pushing other people off track, yet only time incident like that was investigated was 2016 Germany when he was pushed off by Rosberg.
He also has long history of moving under braking, and changing direction, with zero penalties awarded (Hungary, Spa, Germany...)
He has ruined so many races, ruined so many great overtakes (Hungary).
Basically F1 with Max lost more than it gained, but that is not important. It is important whom has Jos phoned.

wow, the hatred is strong very strong in this one.

[marmer]

Could just make kerbs alot narrower max(50cm) and then have 1.5 meter wide gravel trap on every corner inside and out. This would give cars a wheel on the kerb allowance but would instantly punish cars that run much wider after the 2 meter wide kerb and gravel arrangement normal tar could be used to allow cars to rejoin track. Or slow down better if car has crashed

[sosic2121]

Max is a bully.
For every decision that goes against him, (or looks like is going against him, like in Mexico 2016 where RB played dirty and abused the system), there is at least 5 situations that goes in his favor.

This is NOT the first time Max made his overtake outside the track. actually it 3rd time that I know of. (2016 Austria and Germany)
He also has a long history of pushing other people off track, yet only time incident like that was investigated was 2016 Germany when he was pushed off by Rosberg.
He also has long history of moving under braking, and changing direction, with zero penalties awarded (Hungary, Spa, Germany...)
He has ruined so many races, ruined so many great overtakes (Hungary).
Basically F1 with Max lost more than it gained, but that is not important. It is important whom has Jos phoned.

wow, the hatred is strong very strong in this one.

Yes, I hate to see what he is getting away with.
And now you want for him to be allowed to cut the corners when he wants to overtake someone...

[Silent Storm]

Look at the official race highlights. Lap 1, Vettel cuts off Hamilton after turn 1 and goes wide . Is that not gaining an advantage? Bottas is overtaken by Max and goes wide, gains momentum by being able to keep his foot down and rejoins the track in front. Is this not gaining an advantage.?

Vettel did gain advantage, Bottas was pushed wide.

Vettel went wide on turn 1 of lap 1, when there is not much heat in the tyres and brakes, this is why many incidents/crashes on lap 1 are ignored and deemed as racing incident.

[Manoah2u]

Max is a bully.
For every decision that goes against him, (or looks like is going against him, like in Mexico 2016 where RB played dirty and abused the system), there is at least 5 situations that goes in his favor.

This is NOT the first time Max made his overtake outside the track. actually it 3rd time that I know of. (2016 Austria and Germany)
He also has a long history of pushing other people off track, yet only time incident like that was investigated was 2016 Germany when he was pushed off by Rosberg.
He also has long history of moving under braking, and changing direction, with zero penalties awarded (Hungary, Spa, Germany...)
He has ruined so many races, ruined so many great overtakes (Hungary).
Basically F1 with Max lost more than it gained, but that is not important. It is important whom has Jos phoned.

wow, the hatred is strong very strong in this one.

Yes, I hate to see what he is getting away with.
And now you want for him to be allowed to cut the corners when he wants to overtake someone...

sure man, make your own interpretation of everything, i can't care less.

[Fulcrum]

@Fulcrum,

Yes I would. My arguments are not based on who was driving. For the record, I am not particularly fond of Max. But obviously, Max is a very polarizing character. There are people that have a dislike for him and some that are on the opposite side. In case you are wondering, being a Dan supporter, I'm more in the former group (personal bias), though that doesn't stop me from appreciating the guy for what he is.

What you are saying ("Reactive movement or premeditated - that's his mistake") is that it is irrelevant if Kimi made that conscious move to the right that influenced Max to go off track. I say it's not irrelevant, because had that not happened, Max could have easily stayed on that line and complete the overtake on track. One could say, Kimi "intimidated" Max into going off-line. Would that be allowed according to your logic? Intimidating a driver to leave the track to protect your position?

Where on earth do you see a move to block in Kimi's driving? He took the normal racing line into the corner because he was operating under the assumption that Max wasn't going to, or able to, dive up the inside.

At the point where he sees Max has actually driven up the inside he jinks left and decelerates. Go and look at the multi-angle video and you can see him move left as Max hits the second apex, halfway alongside the Ferrari.

Kimi prevented an accident from happening (imo). You seem to think he almost caused one, to the point that Max was 'frightened' off the road - and on that basis he should keep the place.

This point of contention probably won't resolve itself, so I'm not inclined to comment any further on the matter other than to say that Max earned his penalty (imo), and I'd appreciate if the rules were applied in this regard with greater consistency; then all of the defences based on 'inconsistent rule application' are invalidated.

[Manoah2u]

Kimi did nothing wrong, there is no blame on kimi at all in the overtaking incident. Apart from that, he either did nothing wrong like the rest of the field with 4 wheels outside the track limits on every lap, like every other driver, or he was wrong like every other driver on every other lap. The only argument held against max is that he supposedly 'cut' the corner and gained an advantage, and the FIA is trying to act like that's any different to how the rest of the field was with 4 wheels outside track limits. In every case, it is gaining an advantage.
So if Max gained an advantage from his move, and then he should be -rightfully so- penalized, fine. BUT, all those other cars gained a - lasting - advantage too by going with all 4's off track too.
They would have had to either brake harder, drive slower, to keep withing track limits. that never happened, so every other driver also had a 'lasting advantage'.
In other words, that means the entire field should have had a penalty, which then means Max gets' his P3 back.

People still seem to miss out on the point that nobody is claiming Verstappen did not 'cut the corner' or that he didn't get an advantage from 'exceeding track limits'. the issue is that the rest of the field had NO penalty for doing arguably exactly the same.

[outsid3r]

NOPE! NOT FAIR AT ALL!!

Of course if it were any other car other than a Ferrari that Verstappen overtook outside track limits, the penalty would have been very fair... But in this case; NO! NOT ACCEPTABLE!! we should get rid of all the rules, together with FIA, and F1 altogether for that matter

[DoNotPause]

The only argument held against max is that he supposedly 'cut' the corner and gained an advantage, and the FIA is trying to act like that's any different to how the rest of the field was with 4 wheels outside track limits. In every case, it is gaining an advantage.
So if Max gained an advantage from his move, and then he should be -rightfully so- penalized, fine. BUT, all those other cars gained a - lasting - advantage too by going with all 4's off track too.
They would have had to either brake harder, drive slower, to keep withing track limits. that never happened, so every other driver also had a 'lasting advantage'.
In other words, that means the entire field should have had a penalty, which then means Max gets' his P3 back.

Actually, that's not even a good counter argument, if every driver cut the corner therefore it stands to reason that no one gain a lasting advantage since everyone gets -0.1s or whatever the time saving per lap. So this brings everyone back to same playing field...until Max cuts the corner to overtake. The overtaking move made him a SOLE benefactor hence the penalty. To simplify it for the people wearing coloured glasses...
- all drivers cuts corner, no overtaking while cutting -> all driver gains 0.1s per lap -> everyone same advantage
- all drivers cuts corner, Max overtakes while cutting -> all drivers gains 0.1s per lap AND Max gains a position -> Max gets more of an advantage than everyone else

So I don't see how that argument can be used to support Max getting P3 back. I think the whole reason for the penalty is not for cutting the corner but for cutting the corner to OVERTAKE. Judging from the weekend, the FIA were happy to allow more margins in terms of track limits as long as you don't overtake or become a sole benefactor of it. I mean they can police it...it would end up like Spa 24hrs where people will turn it into a drinking game where everytime a track limit penalty was announced, they will take a shot. Sounds fun