Scuderia Ferrari 2012

[bhall]

I don't know that the Prodromou example is necessarily a good one. The MP4-21 was designed by Adrian Newey. So, Promodrou's work either did little to assist Newey in the design, or it actually hampered Newey. (Or there's no way to give him either credit or blame.)

I'm not saying Ferrari should only go after guys at the elite level in terms of both proficiency and notoriety, though that would obviously be nice. I just don't see anything in Bigios' body of work that suggests his arrival at Ferrari, if it happens, should be greeted by a tickertape parade.

His stay at Ligier/Prost didn't really amount to much. His work at Minardi...well, you can't really hold that against him. But it does get sticky after that.

When he got to Williams, they stopped being competitive. When he got to Honda, they, too, stopped being competitive. And aside from the BGP 001, which apparently wasn't his, his work for Brawn/Mercedes hasn't set the world on fire, either.

It would be foolish to throw the blame for his teams' lack of success solely at his feet at the expense of everyone around him. Yet, it's quite obvious that his presence didn't help those teams recover at all, and that's what Ferrari needs right now.

I suppose time will tell the story better than anything else.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

I don't know that the Prodromou example is necessarily a good one. The MP4-21 was designed by Adrian Newey. So, Promodrou's work either did little to assist Newey in the design, or it actually hampered Newey. (Or there's no way to give him either credit or blame.)

I'm not saying Ferrari should only go after guys at the elite level in terms of both proficiency and notoriety, though that would obviously be nice. I just don't see anything in Bigios' body of work that suggests his arrival at Ferrari, if it happens, should be greeted by a tickertape parade.

His stay at Ligier/Prost didn't really amount to much. His work at Minardi...well, you can't really hold that against him. But it does get sticky after that.

When he got to Williams, they stopped being competitive. When he got to Honda, they, too, stopped being competitive. And aside from the BGP 001, which apparently wasn't his, his work for Brawn/Mercedes hasn't set the world on fire, either.

It would be foolish to throw the blame for his teams' lack of success solely at his feet at the expense of everyone around him. Yet, it's quite obvious that his presence didn't help those teams recover at all, and that's what Ferrari needs right now.

I suppose time will tell the story better than anything else.

I totally get what you're saying Ben. My only point is an experienced aero engineer should be welcomed at the team. I'm not saying we should make a shrine for the guy, but someone is is solid in said area of weakness for the team is most definitely needed.
I absolutely wish we could get Prodromou to Maranello. I don't want Newey to be honest. Also keep in mind McLaren's David Sanchez said specifically he was going to Ferrari, and he's been in McLaren Aerodynamics Department for years. All I'm saying is bringing in guys who have worked in Aerodynamics and have been involved with cars that have better aerodynamics than previous Ferrari's is a good thing.

It's funny how in the Mercedes thread they're disowning the guy, yet before it was announced he was going to Ferrari they were fine with the job he did and didn't mind he was there. I don't recall anyone posting they wanted him to leave like they are now.

Anywho, I think we're basically on the same page.

[bhall]

Not quite, but it' s not a big deal either way.

I don't want to unjustly denigrate someone, especially someone who's not on the front line with his name tacked on a bunch of stuff. But I was really just trying to politely say that it looks like this guy has been a cancer wherever he goes. His teams' record of failure is quite remarkable, and frankly, I don't want him at Ferrari at all.

Who knows? Maybe if he goes to the Scuderia his fortunes will change.

And perhaps his value will be shown in other ways. He could be the provider of routes to avoid. If he thinks a given idea from Tombazis, Fry, et al, is a good one, they can probably be reasonably sure that it's not.

I know that sounds flippant, but I imagine it could be very useful, especially for a team that appears to have a hard time saying no.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

I don't want to unjustly denigrate someone, especially someone who's not on the front line with his name tacked on a bunch of stuff. But I was really just trying to politely say that it looks like this guy has been a cancer wherever he goes. His teams' record of failure is quite remarkable, and frankly, I don't want him at Ferrari at all.

Really? What do you know of the guy? Was the Brawn's weakspot aerodynamics? No. How about the Merc's? No. So I would say in fact he's a solid aerodynamicist.

[shelly]

I think how merc has been able to develop, test and race the DDRS it is a demonstration of brackley aero dept being able of handling real track aero very well, possibly better than all the other teams.

Another sign that there is something different in mercedes aero work flow is that they seldom run flow viz or pitot rakes.

In the position ferrari is now, it is vital for them to take people from all the other teams, at every seniority level, from junior, to mid (Sanchez) to high (Agathangelou, Bigois), in order to change workflow, as they have already started doing (methodology changes Fry mentioned at the beginning of the season).

[Crucial_Xtreme]

I think how merc has been able to develop, test and race the DDRS it is a demonstration of brackley aero dept being able of handling real track aero very well, possibly better than all the other teams.

Another sign that there is something different in mercedes aero work flow is that they seldom run flow viz or pitot rakes.

In the position ferrari is now, it is vital for them to take people from all the other teams, at every seniority level, from junior, to mid (Sanchez) to high (Agathangelou, Bigois), in order to change workflow, as they have already started doing (methodology changes Fry mentioned at the beginning of the season).

+1 literally

I agree completely. Indeed you next to never see Mercedes run flo-vis or pitot tubes which as I suggest above, Aerodynamics has never been their weakness and someone coming over from their aero department would be a welcomed addition to Ferrari's. I'm not saying this guy is Newey, but to me it's clear he's a solid Aerodynamicist and someone the team could definitely use to their advantage.

[rjsa]

Ferrari has shut down the factory due to another earth quake at Elilia Romagna today. Aparently no damage but they won't risk keeping the workers in.

[munudeges]

Indeed you next to never see Mercedes run flo-vis or pitot tubes which as I suggest above, Aerodynamics has never been their weakness.....

[bhall]

Just because you don't see a team openly testing their aerodynamics doesn't necessarily mean they're sound. It just means those characteristics aren't being tested openly.

I'm really not trying to cast aspersions on the guy, but his record is what it is.

Forget about Ligier/Prost and Minardi. He arrived at Williams in 2003 and was promoted to Chief Aerodynamicist in late 2004. Williams didn't win another race until this year. He joined Honda in early 2008, admittedly too late to have much, if any, initial input into the design of the RA108, but that car was a big step backwards from the RA107, itself a big step backwards from the RA106, and it got steadily worse as the season wore on.

Even if the BGP 001 was entirely Bigios' creation, which it wasn't, I don't know how to dole out credit for it one way or the other. The rule changes that accompanied its introduction were so vast that it was pretty much a given that fortune was destined to smile down upon one or two teams and put them miles above the rest. As it turned out, it was Brawn. Yet, the car still steadily fell backwards after the first 6-7 races.

I know that his Mercedes creations haven't been outright aerodynamic disasters, but they've been nothing to write home about, either. And until this year, they've been little more than attempts to recreate the short-wheelbase magic of the BGP 001, and even Schumacher wasn't able to make them look good.

This is not me saying he's a bad person, nor is it me necessarily saying he's a bad aerodynamicist. I'm saying that whatever he is, it ain't a good luck charm.

[shelly]

I think every body here knows the story of the ddd being invented by a japanese engineer working for superaguri then moved to honda; I do not know if it is true or not.
My point is: in an aero dept who is working on tight schedule, you have to establish a good way for testing new idea and projects alongside the mainstream aero development work. You have to develop a team structure which is capable of putting forward the good ideas, and to identify (the sooner the better) the potential of new concepts.
This is valid especially in a contest of relatively new rule set, with limited wt and cfd time.

A man of sound experience like Bigois, coming from a top team which is showing a different approach to aero compared to the others, and the hire of Agathangelou, will surely help ferrari in restructuring their aero department.

[Gerhard Berger]

He arrived at Williams in 2003 and was promoted to Chief Aerodynamicist in late 2004. Williams didn't win another race until this year.

The problem is that there were other changes in this time period. For a start BMW left Williams. Secondly, Sam Michael was appointed as TD around the same time.

[bhall]

I didn't say Bigois single-handedly put Williams into a competitive coma. I am, however, saying that he didn't do much to rouse the team from its slumber.

Remember this?

(Click to enlarge. If you have the stomach for it.)

[Gerhard Berger]

Terzi was responsible for the Walrus nose. I doubt Bigois had much to do with it since he only joined Williams in early 2004 (IIRC).

[zyphro]

I don't know that the Prodromou example is necessarily a good one. The MP4-21 was designed by Adrian Newey. So, Promodrou's work either did little to assist Newey in the design, or it actually hampered Newey. (Or there's no way to give him either credit or blame.)

I'm not saying Ferrari should only go after guys at the elite level in terms of both proficiency and notoriety, though that would obviously be nice. I just don't see anything in Bigios' body of work that suggests his arrival at Ferrari, if it happens, should be greeted by a tickertape parade.

His stay at Ligier/Prost didn't really amount to much. His work at Minardi...well, you can't really hold that against him. But it does get sticky after that.

When he got to Williams, they stopped being competitive. When he got to Honda, they, too, stopped being competitive. And aside from the BGP 001, which apparently wasn't his, his work for Brawn/Mercedes hasn't set the world on fire, either.

It would be foolish to throw the blame for his teams' lack of success solely at his feet at the expense of everyone around him. Yet, it's quite obvious that his presence didn't help those teams recover at all, and that's what Ferrari needs right now.

I suppose time will tell the story better than anything else.

I totally get what you're saying Ben. My only point is an experienced aero engineer should be welcomed at the team. I'm not saying we should make a shrine for the guy, but someone is is solid in said area of weakness for the team is most definitely needed.
I absolutely wish we could get Prodromou to Maranello. I don't want Newey to be honest. Also keep in mind McLaren's David Sanchez said specifically he was going to Ferrari, and he's been in McLaren Aerodynamics Department for years. All I'm saying is bringing in guys who have worked in Aerodynamics and have been involved with cars that have better aerodynamics than previous Ferrari's is a good thing.

It's funny how in the Mercedes thread they're disowning the guy, yet before it was announced he was going to Ferrari they were fine with the job he did and didn't mind he was there. I don't recall anyone posting they wanted him to leave like they are now.

Anywho, I think we're basically on the same page.

That's a load of tripe. Go back to Merc W02 thread on Autosport; everyone questioned the lack of FW iterations. Bigois played a large role in this.

"Disowned"? The writing was on the wall once Willis and Costa were recruited, what more of use was he going to be? Hence the probable short-shifted role in helping to improve Ferrari's wind tunnel facilities. How much experience he can bring towards that, is yet to be seen.

I wonder if the Sam Michael's jinx got carried over to Macca, and the same will occur to Ferrari? Hmm . So far so good, updates worked right off the bat for Merc.

Anyway needless to say, we're off topic.

[zyphro]

Terzi was responsible for the Walrus nose. I doubt Bigois had much to do with it since he only joined Williams in early 2004 (IIRC).

Indeed.