Yeah, an exhaust gas chiller pre-turbine does sound like a bad idea now that you mention it. On one hand, the amount of gas passing through the turbine would be greater, but on the other, said gas would be colder & lower pressure depending on how the two streams are combined. Mainly I'm wondering if an aerodynamic benefit could be had via smaller radiator ducting (by adding a heat exchanger circuit parallel to the ICE) , and if playing around with bleed/bypass air in the exhaust could offer some benefit. But if it absorbs too much exhaust heat pre-turbine, then...PlatinumZealot wrote:Not sure if by-passing the engine is allowed though.
And dumping cold air into the turbo is not a good idea.
Also..
Thermodynamically this is actually a waste of energy!
You use exhaust gas to compress air at a given efficiency of near 64%.. Then you plan to dump the relativelycold air into the turbine?
So there is is no gain there. Actually huge losses.. The only way you could gain something is if you were boundary cooling a given surface.... But this is not needed for a car turbo. Temps are not that hot as power generating gas turbines.
I did not say geared, I was referring specifically to having a simple clutch. Also what evidence exists on whether the MGUH are clutched or not?dren wrote:Clutching would just add more mass. As reliant as these PUs are on the MGUH, I don't see much need for clutching. Eliminating the field in the generator would have a similar effect if it was wanted.noname wrote:3 MGUs are not clutched. Maybe even 4, I have not seen details of the 4th.ringo wrote:I think most of the MGUH if not all are clutched.
glenntws wrote:Hey Guys,
after creating a account in this forum to take part in the discussion of the Honda PU and reading about a vortex exhaust System, I started looking here for some ideas and found a good idea. That's why I decided, that I could maybe help you a bit with some ideas or simulations.
Please notice that I haven't studied all that (still going to high school) so I can't be 100% sure about my statements and calculations, but I'm still pretty confident about that
Ok, so what did I do? I started of with two pipes. One clear pipe with a inner diameter of 40mm and one with the Special shaped internal part (inner diameter also 40mm). Both pipes are 520mm long, have a wall thickness of 2,5mm and both are enclosed in a air volume.
I then simulated both pipes with the same variables. The outer air volume had a in-temp of 100°C and a velocity of 50m/s. The inner (exhaust) volume had a in-temp of 1000° , a pressure of 5bar absolute and a velocity of 100m/s.
While I won't show you screenshots of the normal exhaust simulation (useless, it's just a simple flow in one direction), I can show you some details about the vortex-style pipe.
http://fs5.directupload.net/images/170222/78hlcdrb.png
Here you can see how the heat get's trapped in the center. The vortices indeed are able to generate some kind of heat shield.
It's fascinating that these turbulent motions also make up for a barrier between the "pins" that look into the center and the exhaust gas.
http://fs5.directupload.net/images/170222/dtbf9wio.png
Here I also enabled some vector-arrows to show, how the flow looks like in these little chambers. You can see good, how there are building up little circles of flow, generating the "heat shield". Interesting is, that the vortices have a different shape for every chamber, maybe the flow that went out of one chamber directly get's into the next one and creates some different kind of motion. I don't know if I did the Simulation too short (only did 400 interations, the divergence still was pretty high) but I'm not able to do these big simulations with my current PC in a acceptable time window
The most important thing however is: Did we save heat energy in this process??? And, according to Autodesk CFD, it indeed does. The heat energy transfer on the normal pipe was 28767,5 watts. The energy Transfer on the vortex-shaped pipe was at only 18632,8 watts!!! That's a plus of 54,4%! And i think we all now what could be done with a extra of 10 Kilowatts > more MGU-H recovery potential.
The only negative effect is the flow resistance. In the vortex style pipe, it's 2,24 times higher... But nevertheless, I am more than sure that this is the right way to go.
The only thing that's important is the shape of these vortex inducing elements. And I'm pretty sure the ones I used weren't nearly as optimal as possible (only did one version, the Simulation is sooooo time consuming....).
Anyway, I think we really found something that MB and the others could use
A close friend of mine who works at Mercedes AMG Petronas said that they are already producing 1000bhp and were close to it last year but since the regulations have opened up, it has allowed them to accelerate the program to achieve this!!ringo wrote:As for the engine power, i don't think we should get too excited about what andy cowel is saying.
He chose his words wisely when he said they can get 50% of the energy from the fuel with combustion, and he is right.
This is not purely from piston to crank. It also includes the MGUH, as exhuast gases going throuh the turbine are considered in this case to be useful combustion energy for the MGUH.
So i think 831 hp is actually reasonable, maybe 60 or so HP from that is from the MGUH.
I think he is just well trained in F1 politics.ringo wrote:They seem to know more than Andy Cowell too, as he has admitted that the level has not been reached as yet, but he thinks it will be in the future.
no backlash? like taking off 2 cylinders? and myriads of cost and "powercontaining" spec regs. .ringo wrote:That is just speculation. The regs have already limited flow rate and engine displacement; the engine makes can make as much power as they wish once they are within the rules, so i don't see the FIA being blindsided by how much power mercedes can really make. Every engine maker knows from the start what the maximum is from perfect combustion, and perfect MGUH recovery.
The V 10 engines were nearer to the 1000hp mark, and there was no big backlash concerning engine power.
Heat rejection at the radiator (for current F1) is undoubtedly much lower than any other race car. Previously you would expect about 33% of the fuel energy to end up as heat from the radiators. The Mercedes is converting perhaps 55% of the fuel energy to useful power leaving 45% to be rejected to the exhaust and the radiator. Heat flow to the exhaust is considerable despite the energy extracted by the turbine. The tailpipe gas is relatively cool, but the massflow is very high due to the lean mixture. Massflow is probably about double what you would expect previously for an 850 hp engine so there is a lot of heat coming out of that exhaust.roon wrote:Looking at how small the radiator exits are on the W08, I began to wonder if some of the radiator rejection was being routed through the exhaust pipes.