Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

[djos]

I'm in the USA for work for the next 10 days and I'm really gonna miss V8's when they are gone from the show rooms.

Got myself a Dodge Charger RT while I'm here and it's a real hoot and the noise it makes, oh boy, pure sonic pr0n!

Driving from LAX to Santa Barbara at 75-85 mph was a real blast!

[Andres125sx]

It is recommended to make a stop every 2 hours of driving, fatigue is as dangerous as driving drunk, so I can't see how 7.5 minutes of charging at those stops can be a problem for anyone sincerely

(...)

Is this the world we live in now? That's some serious safety nonsense. I agree fatigue can be very dangerous but 2hrs? One day it will be recommended we all stay at home and wear bubble wrap coated in disinfectant.

Yes, a world where there are serious reports to study the cause of 20-30% of accidents (fatigue)

You don´t need to really feel the fatigue to be driving below your own capabilities, after 2 hours behind the wheel it´s easy to get distracted, focus on the road is crucial (even when 99.99% of our distractions luckily have no consequences) and no human can keep focus on any activity for much longer than that without any resting period in between, it doesn´t matter if it´s driving, studying or working on something you like

It´s not an opinion, it´s biology

Sorry spanish, but I´m sure there must be in english too if you´re really interested in doing a quick search
http://www.dgt.es/revista/archivo/pdf/n ... 2salud.pdf

It´s recommended 15-30 minutes each 2 hours. For eldery people each 1 an a half hour

[Nickel]

It is recommended to make a stop every 2 hours of driving, fatigue is as dangerous as driving drunk, so I can't see how 7.5 minutes of charging at those stops can be a problem for anyone sincerely

(...)

Is this the world we live in now? That's some serious safety nonsense. I agree fatigue can be very dangerous but 2hrs? One day it will be recommended we all stay at home and wear bubble wrap coated in disinfectant.

Yes, a world where there are serious reports to study the cause of 20-30% of accidents (fatigue)

You don´t need to really feel the fatigue to be driving below your own capabilities, after 2 hours behind the wheel it´s easy to get distracted, focus on the road is crucial (even when 99.99% of our distractions luckily have no consequences) and no human can keep focus on any activity for much longer than that without any resting period in between, it doesn´t matter if it´s driving, studying or working on something you like

It´s not an opinion, it´s biology

Sorry spanish, but I´m sure there must be in english too if you´re really interested in doing a quick search
http://www.dgt.es/revista/archivo/pdf/n ... 2salud.pdf

It´s recommended 15-30 minutes each 2 hours. For eldery people each 1 an a half hour

First of all, it is an opinion. It's the opinion of the people who made the recommendation. The only science is that driving tired is dangerous. There's no science to show that a human is tired to the point of hazard after 2 hours. Frankly the only logical explanation is to get people to stop and spend money.

Here's the DOT laws around truck drivers:
https://www.truckinsure.com/blog/how-lo ... ing-break/

[Brake Horse Power]

I'm in the USA for work for the next 10 days and I'm really gonna miss V8's when they are gone from the show rooms.

Got myself a Dodge Charger RT while I'm here and it's a real hoot and the noise it makes, oh boy, pure sonic pr0n!

Driving from LAX to Santa Barbara at 75-85 mph was a real blast!

https://i.imgur.com/BuDxDrt.jpg

Awesome shirt

[djos]

I'm in the USA for work for the next 10 days and I'm really gonna miss V8's when they are gone from the show rooms.

Got myself a Dodge Charger RT while I'm here and it's a real hoot and the noise it makes, oh boy, pure sonic pr0n!

Driving from LAX to Santa Barbara at 75-85 mph was a real blast!

https://i.imgur.com/BuDxDrt.jpg

Awesome shirt

Thanks mate, I'm fortunate that my non-geek wife lives my geek self and likes to buy me lots of retro and movie t-shirts.

[RZS10]

Here's a (slightly corrected) google translate of the pdf for anyone interested:

When driving you must be prepared to, in a matter of milliseconds, respond to situations that may become a limit. Fatigue - resulting from a set of factors - makes it difficult to keep attention or make mistakes or, more dangerously, to take more risks to arrive earlier. As a general rule, to avoid it you have to rest 20 minutes every 2 hours of driving or every 150/200 kilometers.

In the face of fatigue, and as a basic rule, every driver should know that it is necessary to rest during driving in order to reduce the possibility of fatigue. The rest must be carried out at least after every 2 hours at the wheel, although no more than some kilometers have been advanced, or every 150/200 kilometers traveled and must last at least 20 minutes, with half an hour being desirable.

The reason for remembering the need for rest during Driving is the information obtained from a recent study in a sample of Spanish drivers on their health habits, carried out by the University of Valladolid and the General Directorate of Traffic (DGT). Among the many aspects that this study analyzed, one was after how much driving time the drivers got tired in Spain. 12.4% said they did it before 2 hours of driving; 47.8%, after a period of time between 2 and 3 hours; and 39.8%, which after 3 or more hours behind the wheel.
The majority of traffic accidents are caused by the combination of several factors, among which driving under the influence of alcohol, fatigue, speed inappropriate for traffic circumstances and distraction. Fatigue is the end result of very varied circumstances. In addition to the above, sleep, overwork, use of medications or changes in work shifts favor the appearance of fatigue. Driving, although it has a large component of automatic or reflex actions, is an effort, physical and mental, for the organism, which must be vigilant and prepared to respond to varied stimuli in seconds.
Fatigue - it is said that it is responsible for 20 or 30% of accidents - makes it more difficult to maintain attention and make mistakes more easily when executing maneuvers. As it grows, the greater the desire to reach the destination (or achieve the planned goal on the trip), more risks are assumed and the behavior is more aggressive.

How to recognize fatigue?
Mainly a high level of fatigue should be suspected when it is difficult to concentrate on the road and almost unconscious maneuvers are performed. The heaviness of sight and constant blinking; ringing in the ears; the feeling of arms and feet asleep; The need to move in the car - which is always accompanied by greater or lesser loss of attention - are symptoms that should alert you to the level of fatigue
It is excessive. With the slightest suspicion of fatigue, you must stop and rest. Nor should we forget that heavy meals, improper clothing, excessive heat and light of the central hours of the day contribute to in-
Increase fatigue.

As indicated, in general, breaks of 15/30 minutes should be done every 2 hours of travel or every 150/200 kilometers. Older people should do it every hour or hour and a half. When traveling with small children You need to rest more often. Special attention should be paid to those who make large displacements during the night: they must start them having rested properly and always having someone awake beside them.

In order for the rest to be as rehabilitative as possible and to be 'like new' when driving again, when leaving the car, it is necessary to take a walk, move and exercise for at least 10 or 15 minutes and, if symptoms have appeared sleepily, sleep a few minutes. Then you can use it to drink water and cool your face with cold water, which contributes to our wellbeing.
An adequate mentalization is recommended before the trip: drivers and companions must understand that they are going to take a long trip and that it will take several hours to reach the destination. The worst thing is to start it by setting time or speed goals to maintain: this ‘forces’, consciously or unconsciously, to take unnecessary risks and, perhaps, to cause an accident.

I could not find the source, only thing i found was the abstract of a paper about a variety of health issues and their relation to driving capabilities published by the Valladolid university from 1995 ... it's based on questionnaires and mainly focused on the aforementioned health issues, rather than just fatigue but one of the questions was after how many hours the drivers 'felt' tired, they did not conduct any real world (simulator) experiments to confirm their findings so any advice they give is worth ... well you decide ...

It's not 20-30% of accidents that are caused by fatigue btw (it's a low one digit percentage of total accidents)



source (in english) https://www.toi.no/getfile.php/131016/P ... 2004-2.pdf

This paper mentions actual simulator experiments where they noticed changes after several hours of non stop driving at night and also quotes older studies that had similar conclusions (notable risk increase after 5 to 8 hours)

However it's supposedly 16% of all deaths in traffic that are related to fatigue (or falling asleep) but there we're not talking "being slightly tired by several hours of driving" but about driving home at night after a whole day of being awake etc ... "Fatigue = drunk driving" only becomes an issue after many hours without sleep (~0.5‰ after 17h) and it's roughly as bad as driving with a full bladder ... if you start a road trip well rested you literally only have to stop when you (or any of the passengers) gotta take a piss or when the tank is empty.

I've done most trips up to 6h (varying distance) in one go without issues, all longer ones (like 1300km) with several people with one longer break for dinner (45min or so) and the other ones just a few minutes every few hours for peeing or switching drivers ...

In general the "charging for 7.5 minutes every two hours is fine because you're supposed to make 30 minute breaks every 2 hours of driving" is a really weak argument anyways even if you were to make those unnecessarily long breaks, not only because it falls apart when you consider that a lot of people will do road trips with several drivers (where you're only limited by the car's range) but also because once you start going at reasonable speeds (not just crawling around with the trucks on the right lane) any longer trip with most (current gen) EVs becomes a pain in the bum.

I'm recently watched a video (that wasn't made by some EV praising youtuber or state TV) where a guy took an EV on a longer trip ... i can't find it unfortunately since i don't remember where i saw it ... but the trip took a ridiculously long amount of time and he was crawling around on the right lane (which is probably more dangerous but definitely more fatiguing than going quicker but i can't quote a study on this, just personal experience) in order to meet the average power consumption needed to get to the charging points the navsat calculated.

Oh and about "most people will charge at home" ... most people don't live in houses with parking locations within power socket range so i wonder how they plan to fix that

[Andres125sx]

Frankly the only logical explanation is to get people to stop and spend money.

It´s a conspiracy!!!





I found the climate change denials close to paranoids, but this one is going even further

The only logical explanation is to prevent accidents, I also found 15-30 minutes each 2 hours excessive, but considering this a conspiracy to spend money is beyond my understanding capabilities

BTW, 10 minutes each 3 hours would be enough to charge the EV we were talking about. But I´m sure some of you will find some other reason to criticize

[Andres125sx]

...

That link is focused on falling asleep, but thanks

I was talking about keeping focus, maybe it´s not fatigue but tiredness, not sure what´s the correct word. Anyone can drive for 8 hours continuously, but his reflexes will be far from optimal. Same as none can study for 4 hours without a break, none should be driving for 4 hours without a break. 99.999% of time nothing will happen, but when shi* happens half a second difference in reaction times can be the difference between dodging an accident or not

[Gatecrasher]

Just saw a Tesla P100D in Oregon with a New Jersey plate on it. Don't know if it got here on a transporter or was driven. But I am sure it will just be one of the first that I will see over the next few years. Can't deny the technology is getting better, slow pace, but improving.

[Big Tea]

Here's a (slightly corrected) google translate of the pdf for anyone interested:

When driving you must be prepared to, in a matter of milliseconds, respond to situations that may become a limit. Fatigue - resulting from a set of factors - makes it difficult to keep attention or make mistakes or, more dangerously, to take more risks to arrive earlier. As a general rule, to avoid it you have to rest 20 minutes every 2 hours of driving or every 150/200 kilometers.

In the face of fatigue, and as a basic rule, every driver should know that it is necessary to rest during driving in order to reduce the possibility of fatigue. The rest must be carried out at least after every 2 hours at the wheel, although no more than some kilometers have been advanced, or every 150/200 kilometers traveled and must last at least 20 minutes, with half an hour being desirable.

The reason for remembering the need for rest during Driving is the information obtained from a recent study in a sample of Spanish drivers on their health habits, carried out by the University of Valladolid and the General Directorate of Traffic (DGT). Among the many aspects that this study analyzed, one was after how much driving time the drivers got tired in Spain. 12.4% said they did it before 2 hours of driving; 47.8%, after a period of time between 2 and 3 hours; and 39.8%, which after 3 or more hours behind the wheel.
The majority of traffic accidents are caused by the combination of several factors, among which driving under the influence of alcohol, fatigue, speed inappropriate for traffic circumstances and distraction. Fatigue is the end result of very varied circumstances. In addition to the above, sleep, overwork, use of medications or changes in work shifts favor the appearance of fatigue. Driving, although it has a large component of automatic or reflex actions, is an effort, physical and mental, for the organism, which must be vigilant and prepared to respond to varied stimuli in seconds.
Fatigue - it is said that it is responsible for 20 or 30% of accidents - makes it more difficult to maintain attention and make mistakes more easily when executing maneuvers. As it grows, the greater the desire to reach the destination (or achieve the planned goal on the trip), more risks are assumed and the behavior is more aggressive.

How to recognize fatigue?
Mainly a high level of fatigue should be suspected when it is difficult to concentrate on the road and almost unconscious maneuvers are performed. The heaviness of sight and constant blinking; ringing in the ears; the feeling of arms and feet asleep; The need to move in the car - which is always accompanied by greater or lesser loss of attention - are symptoms that should alert you to the level of fatigue
It is excessive. With the slightest suspicion of fatigue, you must stop and rest. Nor should we forget that heavy meals, improper clothing, excessive heat and light of the central hours of the day contribute to in-
Increase fatigue.

As indicated, in general, breaks of 15/30 minutes should be done every 2 hours of travel or every 150/200 kilometers. Older people should do it every hour or hour and a half. When traveling with small children You need to rest more often. Special attention should be paid to those who make large displacements during the night: they must start them having rested properly and always having someone awake beside them.

In order for the rest to be as rehabilitative as possible and to be 'like new' when driving again, when leaving the car, it is necessary to take a walk, move and exercise for at least 10 or 15 minutes and, if symptoms have appeared sleepily, sleep a few minutes. Then you can use it to drink water and cool your face with cold water, which contributes to our wellbeing.
An adequate mentalization is recommended before the trip: drivers and companions must understand that they are going to take a long trip and that it will take several hours to reach the destination. The worst thing is to start it by setting time or speed goals to maintain: this ‘forces’, consciously or unconsciously, to take unnecessary risks and, perhaps, to cause an accident.

I could not find the source, only thing i found was the abstract of a paper about a variety of health issues and their relation to driving capabilities published by the Valladolid university from 1995 ... it's based on questionnaires and mainly focused on the aforementioned health issues, rather than just fatigue but one of the questions was after how many hours the drivers 'felt' tired, they did not conduct any real world (simulator) experiments to confirm their findings so any advice they give is worth ... well you decide ...

It's not 20-30% of accidents that are caused by fatigue btw (it's a low one digit percentage of total accidents)

https://i.imgur.com/itG6Vb1.png

source (in english) https://www.toi.no/getfile.php/131016/P ... 2004-2.pdf

This paper mentions actual simulator experiments where they noticed changes after several hours of non stop driving at night and also quotes older studies that had similar conclusions (notable risk increase after 5 to 8 hours)

However it's supposedly 16% of all deaths in traffic that are related to fatigue (or falling asleep) but there we're not talking "being slightly tired by several hours of driving" but about driving home at night after a whole day of being awake etc ... "Fatigue = drunk driving" only becomes an issue after many hours without sleep (~0.5‰ after 17h) and it's roughly as bad as driving with a full bladder ... if you start a road trip well rested you literally only have to stop when you (or any of the passengers) gotta take a piss or when the tank is empty.

I've done most trips up to 6h (varying distance) in one go without issues, all longer ones (like 1300km) with several people with one longer break for dinner (45min or so) and the other ones just a few minutes every few hours for peeing or switching drivers ...

In general the "charging for 7.5 minutes every two hours is fine because you're supposed to make 30 minute breaks every 2 hours of driving" is a really weak argument anyways even if you were to make those unnecessarily long breaks, not only because it falls apart when you consider that a lot of people will do road trips with several drivers (where you're only limited by the car's range) but also because once you start going at reasonable speeds (not just crawling around with the trucks on the right lane) any longer trip with most (current gen) EVs becomes a pain in the bum.

I'm recently watched a video (that wasn't made by some EV praising youtuber or state TV) where a guy took an EV on a longer trip ... i can't find it unfortunately since i don't remember where i saw it ... but the trip took a ridiculously long amount of time and he was crawling around on the right lane (which is probably more dangerous but definitely more fatiguing than going quicker but i can't quote a study on this, just personal experience) in order to meet the average power consumption needed to get to the charging points the navsat calculated.

Oh and about "most people will charge at home" ... most people don't live in houses with parking locations within power socket range so i wonder how they plan to fix that

When I did my first degree one of the lecturers was a very clever chap and did his own research 'on the side' and agreed with someone famous (who I do not know) that the optimal period of concentration is 20 min. He then split his lectures into 20 min sessions and at the end of the year passed out questionnaires regarding it. He had a very good success rate and I found it very easy to follow. Not sure about today, but I am old school and need to concentrate on driving, and never go more than an hour without a gap. Not just now, but since I was young.

[izzy]

My dad fell completely to sleep at 85mph on the motorway! He was sure he wasn't going to, but he just did. He never thought it could happen. Luckily my mum was awake and noticed the car gradually steering itself towards the central barrier. Anyway so I've seen it recommended that you stop every two hours, but imo it's not much of an argument either way, as long trips are such a minority, like 95% of car trips are less than 30 miles.

Obviously nothing suits everybody so it's no surprise that at this stage in proceedings EV's are for some people and not others, which works perfectly as there aren't enough EV's for everybody to have one yet That doesn't mean they aren't great

[Big Tea]

Short vid here with some interesting things. Vid starts at 4min, and concerns 150Kw BP (at marx) filling station.
They apparently plan to have 150 in before Xmas this year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7llBHh1qmNY

[RZS10]

That link is focused on falling asleep, but thanks

Which one do you mean?

Most papers about that subject say it's many many hours before monotonous driving gets actually dangerous.

That 2h drive / 30min break suggestion is for "everyone" so even the worst drivers in a relatively bad condition ...

But i agree to some extent ... yes, in theory one might lose some focus and one might not be at peak mental capacity and it might get worse with every hour driven, but even after several hours most will be well fit enough to drive properly without being tired - this will of course be very different for everyone (like Big Tea just wrote, one hour stints might work for him, i'd get annoyed at the frequent stopping and loss of 'flow')

I assume it has much to do with how you drive though (monotonous consistent speed or flowing with traffic keeping you 'active') and where you drive (US all lanes go the same slow speed, Autobahn allows doing up to 200kph with moderate traffic) but In theory long driving might increase the chances of losing focus for a brief moment, and there's a chance that this could happen just in the wrong moment leading to an accident but the loss of focus could just as well be caused by a variety of things that also require you to take your eyes off the road ahead like changing the radio station, sneezing, checking whether you're over the speed limit, checking the mirrors, looking at the satnav, picking your nose etc

Very theoretically the risks increase the longer one drives but so does every kph speed increase for example, so ideally in order to be super safe and to stay focussed one should crawl around on the right lane stopping at least every 2 hours for 30 minutes.

In the real world barely anyone does that and it works almost all of the time, unfortunately some are overconfident in their driving skills or their physical state and end up dead or worse killing someone but fortunately we don't live in a bleak world where we're forced to do things a certain way because we 'should' or because of the off chance something bad might happen.

So ultimately it doesn't matter, it's (as with many other things) theory vs. praxis, someone will study something and make a very safe suggestion, it's all fine as long as it doesn't end up being law ... and I'm not suggesting people should drive for 8 hours straight after a long day of work or anything but there's absolutely nothing wrong with driving for 6 hours straight when you're well rested and if your car allows it...

But we're getting very off topic (again lol) ... I don't even think charging on the go will be an issue in some years time with better batteries (or technology in general) and a denser charging network but the current gen cars surely aren't long distance vehicles no matter how you twist and turn it and again "you should stop that frequently anyways" isn't a good argument for EVs in the first place.

What Nickel probably meant was stopping at McD or other establishments at rest areas in order to spend money on food or drinks (?). Dunno

My dad fell completely to sleep at 85mph on the motorway! He was sure he wasn't going to, but he just did. He never thought it could happen. Luckily my mum was awake and noticed the car gradually steering itself towards the central barrier. Anyway so I've seen it recommended that you stop every two hours, but imo it's not much of an argument either way, as long trips are such a minority, like 95% of car trips are less than 30 miles.

My mom almost put us 'under a truck' leaving a gas station on a b-road because she underestimated the truck's speed and overestimated our (fully packed) car's acceleration, she was well rested (slept in the car) whilst i had been awake for half a day + the entire trip and i was still fit enough to realize her mistake in her stead and to grab the wheel and move the car as far to the right as possible just in time to be overtaken by the truck going three wide with the oncoming trucks ... so doing potentially deadly --- doesn't necessarily have to do with tiredness

Yes, most trips are really short but most people will also do a longer one every now and then ... and most can't afford a small electric car for the city and some highway cruiser for the longer trips they'd do a few times a year.

That's why most car makers say that one of the main customer demands is a high range, that's why a lot of the EVs are SUVs because they can pack them full of batteries to achieve something that is 'acceptable' (~400 km)

Just think of the people you know and how they use their cars.

Most will just drive to work daily doing less than those 30 miles twice a day, so you end up with 230 work days x2 trips that are short - that's still two trips per month that are longer than those 30 miles.

Man that old guy in the vid Big Tea posted is almost creaming his pants over some touch to pay ... lmao

[Phil]

This is the greatest risk actually, everyone charging at the same time! The Grids will collapse!

Indeed. How is this massive extra requirement for electricity distributed through a grid that can barely cope at the moment?
I can see a push for a 'Grid Demand Tax' for PEV owners in our future. Then there's the extra electricity generation demands...

Oh rubbish, you guys are assuming everyone needs to pump 60-100 kWh's into their car every night when this is not the case. Most folk drive no more than 60 kms per day so that's ~10 kWh's per vehicle or likely much less for those who drive to the local railway station and back every day.

The grid will evolve to meet demand, just as it always has.

Ps you know why 11 pm to 7am is called off peak right? Cause heavy industry etc aren't active leaving plenty of power for EV's to top up their charge.

Instead of assuming how much people drive, you should do the math backwards; take statistical data of how much mileage is being driven per day on the roads in your country and divide it by the typical energy/mileage stats of electric cars and calculate how much electricity would be required to satisfy that demand. I bet the figure you’d come up with is quite a bit higher than the ~60km figure you are throwing around.

Ps: if everyone will charge their EVs overnight, i guarantee you it wont stay “off peak”.

[Big Tea]

That link is focused on falling asleep, but thanks

.

Man that old guy in the vid Big Tea posted is almost creaming his pants over some touch to pay ... lmao

He is Creighton from Red Dwarf