Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Richard C]

I read an article indicating the Ferrari now owns Mahle. Also, I just read this article that goes in depth about Honda PU struggles. http://www.racecar-engineering.com/arti ... explained/

I don't believe that Ferrari or FCA (Fiat) own Mahle. A recent Joe Saward article mentioned that the Mahle engineer who created the Mahle TJI solution now works for FCA. He goes on to say that Ferrari uses Mahle FJI technology (I assumed via a licensing agreement?) and that the former Mahle engineer may be working with Ferrari given the close relationship between Ferrari and FCA.

Regarding Mercedes and Mahle, I think I have read that Mahle used to be a supplier to Mercedes F1 (maybe supplying pistons?), but currently is not, or may be a supplier in a much reduced capacity than before? I can't remember the timing on when they stopped/reduced their relationship. It may even be prior to the current engine formula? I wish I could point to a link, I am going from memory and I may be wrong.

Why does this content belongs in the Honda thread is that I believe nothing is stopping Honda from working with Mahle unless one of the other teams signed an exclusive use licensing agreement that would preclude Mahle from working with Honda. This is assuming that Mahle could be of assistance with whatever issues Honda is having.

Richard

[J.A.W.]

Honda has its own in-house deal.. https://www.hondarandd.jp/point.php?pid=1043&lang=en

[baybars]

Has illien started to work with Honda?

[restless]

here is the pdf on SA-HCCI
https://hondakarma.com/data/attachment- ... nda_RD.pdf
Its from 2014 and its just an initial research & verification
Wild guess that at that time, Honda was at least 2-3years behind Mahle & Mercedes

[etusch]

Honda is not new on HCCI but it may be their problems with direct injection using one injector per cylinder and using it with Turbo

[fellowhoodlums]

[/quote]

Honda are on the 5th sets for some components, Ferrari pretty much on the 3rd set and Merc still on the first sets.

By the looks of it 3 PUs for one season will be unachievable. I think 4 is already too much of a stretch.

#14 Fernando Alonso: ICE - 2 | TC - 3 | MGU-H - 3 | MGU-K - 2 | ES - 1 | CE - 1
#2 Stoffel Vandoorne: ICE - 2 | TC - 5 | MGU-H - 5 | MGU-K - 2 | ES - 3 | CE - 3

This is a bit grim.
[/quote]

As an aside it shows you perhaps the risk vs reward for the manufacturers.

Mercedes are able to take less risks with improvements and have reliability, it's a more mature design. Ferrari taken more risks to gain performance to Mercedes and they may lose the Championship due to unreliability of that risk. Honda....big risks to take big steps and concept littered with unreliability.

Fascinating.

[diffuser]

Right now the gap between Merc/Ferrari and the rest of the teams is so large that It would be fairly easy for Ferrari to start last and finish 3ird at a track like Canada.

[GoranF1]

I read an article indicating the Ferrari now owns Mahle. Also, I just read this article that goes in depth about Honda PU struggles. http://www.racecar-engineering.com/arti ... explained/

Does this article suggest that the PU used in Bahrain test and the one used in Sochi were different?

[Craigy]

I read an article indicating the Ferrari now owns Mahle.

Mahle is owned by the Mahle foundation. It's not a subsidiary of anything else.
http://www.mahle.com/mahle/en/about-mah ... oundation/
As a consequence, please don't repeat this inaccuracy. Thanks.

[aran.vtec]

I read an article indicating the Ferrari now owns Mahle. Also, I just read this article that goes in depth about Honda PU struggles. http://www.racecar-engineering.com/arti ... explained/

Does this article suggest that the PU used in Bahrain test and the one used in Sochi were different?

I would say so yes, doesn't say anything about one being used in Sochi.
"upgraded unit was tested in Bahrain recently and another major update is due ahead of the Spanish Grand Prix in May. "

[etusch]

İsn't there any company good on direct injection pre-chamber ignition? When I googled I can see that Mann uses this tech on its engines. Toyota were partner with Mann when they were in F1. I think these kind of heavy industiry companies good on big powers and reliability. So Honda also can work with Mann, Caterpiller etc. Mahle is just an example and not matter who is its owner.

[dren]

I think one area that Honda is trying to improve upon with their size zero concept is really minimizing parasitic losses in the whole power-unit. The ICE is a light weight unit, and Honda is already leaning on their previous F1 experience with 2 sided and welded hollow connecting rods, and hollow friction welded crank shafts. I would wager a small sum of money that the issues they are having with the vibrations are coming from a total system with such small masses, is that they are running into harmonics that are smack dab in the middle of the engine's operating range. Honda knows better than to solve an issue with a natural frequency by adding mass to parts, so I feel strongly they are trying other methods to fix that dynamic imbalance. Any issues with the transmission are most likely related to friction down initiatives that may have resultant issues with pre-mature wear, especially if bearing surfaces were downsized to accommodate the low friction targets.

Interesting because here are some quotes from Hasegawa:

“Another major objective was to reduce the overall weight of the unit and lower the center of gravity of it. So it is clear that we have applied a completely new design for the RA617H.”

“I can’t give you the exact details of course, but the center of gravity on the RA617H is some centimeters lower. That is the best thing about this power unit, it is very lightweight and has a low center of gravity."

These quotes do support your thoughts and the thoughts of hollow, friction welded components. The support some others that the MGUH is integrated with the block, sitting lower in the V area. Significant weight reduction methods were probably utilized. Perhaps Honda is using their in-house spark initiated HCCI technology as was posted by another member?

[loner]

Perhaps Honda is using their in-house spark initiated HCCI technology as was posted by another member?

or combined it with TJI !!!

[Anony Mous Engineerd]

Perhaps Honda is using their in-house spark initiated HCCI technology as was posted by another member?

or combined it with TJI !!!

THIS!

I'd guess, they have some higher then the rest compression ratios, with the pre-chamber combustion feeding an HCCI concept. The more I think about it, I'm guessing the vibration struggles are linked to a funky firing order that they are using to either facilitate some clever exhaust strategy to keep the turbo spooled or intake resonance for a little better cylinder filling beyond the FIA boost limits on the turbo....

[ENGINE TUNER]

Also from that document, it appears that in 2018, only 3 ICE/TC/ERS-H are permitted for the full year. This is presumably how the contractual cost for a season of PUs are being reduced (€12m this year, to €9m next).

Has anyone kept a count of all the PUs Honda has lost to damage so far, including testing and so on?

The PU manufacturers have already agreed to remain at 4 PU for the year and will still lower the PU lease amount for 2018. It was agreed before the last strategy group meeting.

The amount the manufacturers charge for the PU lease is arbitrary, as we know Honda dont charge McLaren but actually pay them(might also be the case for Sauber next year). The PU lease amount is not based on number of units used or any other realistic factor, only how much they can squeeze out of the customers until the FIA stepped in and put a limit on it.