Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[nevill3]

That was my understanding too, Four power units but the "costs" were to be limited to the "price" of three in the future

[Tommy Cookers]

[quote="Anony Mous Engineerd"]THIS!......for a little better cylinder filling beyond the FIA boost limits on the turbo...[/quote]

surely there's no FIA boost limits ?

[Anony Mous Engineerd]

THIS!......for a little better cylinder filling beyond the FIA boost limits on the turbo...

surely there's no FIA boost limits ?

You are totally right, no boost limits, I'm not sure why I thought there was...

And after reading the rules again, I'm questioning what they could be doing with alternative firing orders...

ARTICLE 5 : POWER UNIT
5.1 Engine specification :
5.1.1 Only 4-stroke engines with reciprocating pistons are permitted.
5.1.2 Engine cubic capacity must be 1600cc (+0/-10cc).
5.1.3 Crankshaft rotational speed must not exceed 15000rpm.
5.1.4 Fuel mass flow must not exceed 100kg/h.
5.1.5 Below 10500rpm the fuel mass flow must not exceed Q (kg/h) = 0.009 N(rpm)+ 5.5.

5.1.10 The crankshaft may only have three connecting rod bearing journals.

5.4.4 The weight of a piston (with piston-pin, piston-pin retainers and piston rings) may not be less than 300g.
5.4.5 The weight of a connecting rod (with fasteners, small and big end bearings) may not be less than 300g.
5.4.6 The weight of the complete crankshaft assembly between the mid positions of the front and rear main bearing journals (including balance masses, bolts, bungs, O-rings between the boundaries), may not be less than 5300g. See drawing 8.

[ENGINE TUNER]

Is it a proven fact that they are using "alternative firing orders"? Or is that just some alternative facts that have been thrown about around here?

[Anony Mous Engineerd]

Is it a proven fact that they are using "alternative firing orders"? Or is that just some alternative facts that have been thrown about around here?

rumors, nothing but rumors based on slightly odd engine noises compared to some other cars.......

[Anony Mous Engineerd]

You know, after reading the rule book again, I'm curious how you could do a TJI/Pre-chamber combustion concept with these restrictions...

Seems like a pre-chamber is explicitly not allowed if a "conventional spark plug" is required...

5.11 Ignition systems :
5.11.1 Ignition is only permitted by means of a single ignition coil and single spark plug per cylinder. No more than five sparks per cylinder per engine cycle are permitted.
The use of plasma, laser or other high frequency ignition techniques is forbidden.
Only approved ignition coils may be used and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the Appendix to the Technical Regulations.
5.11.2 Only conventional spark plugs that function by high tension electrical discharge across an exposed gap are permitted.
Spark plugs are not subject to the materials restrictions described in Articles 5.16 and 5.17.

[ENGINE TUNER]

Is it a proven fact that they are using "alternative firing orders"? Or is that just some alternative facts that have been thrown about around here?

rumors, nothing but rumors based on slightly odd engine noises compared to some other cars.......

What kind of noises? The Honda has always sounded very different than the rest of the grid.

[godlameroso]

Despite conventional thinking, I sincerely believe there are more than two possible firing orders. Conventional thinking would have you have as even fire as possible with the inherent odd fire in a 90° v angle, as this would give you the best turbine characteristics. However these power units require a different type of thinking. Perhaps there is some benefit in having more crank angle between firing events such that conditions can be more carefully tailored for a more powerful combustion. Tuning exhaust runner length to work with this concept would be rather difficult, but could pay off.

[McHonda]

You know, after reading the rule book again, I'm curious how you could do a TJI/Pre-chamber combustion concept with these restrictions...

Seems like a pre-chamber is explicitly not allowed if a "conventional spark plug" is required...

5.11 Ignition systems :
5.11.1 Ignition is only permitted by means of a single ignition coil and single spark plug per cylinder. No more than five sparks per cylinder per engine cycle are permitted.
The use of plasma, laser or other high frequency ignition techniques is forbidden.
Only approved ignition coils may be used and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the Appendix to the Technical Regulations.
5.11.2 Only conventional spark plugs that function by high tension electrical discharge across an exposed gap are permitted.
Spark plugs are not subject to the materials restrictions described in Articles 5.16 and 5.17.

Explained here..http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opini ... ine-update

"Within the F1 regulations, only a single injector is permitted and the key to applying the principle within that limitation was shrouding only the spark plug to form the mini-chamber above the main combustion chamber and not – as in the drawing – the injector and spark plug together.

In the F1 application the injector injects the fuel-air charge into the main combustion chamber. Around 3 per cent of that charge from the turbo is forced into the mini-chamber under pressure through the orifices in the ring separating the mini chamber from the main chamber. Getting this transfer right and ensuring the correct mixture is in the small chamber was a major part of the challenge for this project".

[gruntguru]

İsn't there any company good on direct injection pre-chamber ignition? When I googled I can see that Mann uses this tech on its engines. Toyota were partner with Mann when they were in F1. I think these kind of heavy industiry companies good on big powers and reliability. So Honda also can work with Mann, Caterpiller etc. Mahle is just an example and not matter who is its owner.

The combustion tech currently used in F1 is cutting-edge. There are no companies out there (except Mahle) with more knowledge than the F1 engine teams.

[Singabule]

Surely no manufacturer or engineer design and produce HCCI thing in perfect, in part and full load or throttle, thats fact. HCCI only occur on very limited range in perfect controlled environment in lab. Even if there are engines produced with HCCI in mind, that process only occur on very limited range. I would not be surprised if we will see full HCCI on stationary engine first than automobiles. TJI is already hard, but HCCI is on another level, different animal from other galaxi. I dont buy that.

[J.A.W.]

Surely no manufacturer or engineer design and produce HCCI thing in perfect, in part and full load or throttle, thats fact. HCCI only occur on very limited range in perfect controlled environment in lab. Even if there are engines produced with HCCI in mind, that process only occur on very limited range. I would not be surprised if we will see full HCCI on stationary engine first than automobiles. TJI is already hard, but HCCI is on another level, different animal from other galaxi. I dont buy that.

Honda will sell you a road car with HLSI ( homogeneous lean-charge spark ignition) but it does not necessarily follow
that they are def' not F1 racing with an HCCI set-up..

Honda R&D boss Keiji Ohtsu is quoted:

"HCCI is limited in terms of rpm, torque, & operational band, or range... we've research both ( HCCI & HLSI), of course."

F1 engines also make race-pace within an "rpm... limited... operational band..." too, of course..

[etusch]

İsn't there any company good on direct injection pre-chamber ignition? When I googled I can see that Mann uses this tech on its engines. Toyota were partner with Mann when they were in F1. I think these kind of heavy industiry companies good on big powers and reliability. So Honda also can work with Mann, Caterpiller etc. Mahle is just an example and not matter who is its owner.

The combustion tech currently used in F1 is cutting-edge. There are no companies out there (except Mahle) with more knowledge than the F1 engine teams.

Acording to me to say that is not true. Because there is many racing series and tech companies could be found better tech and still not using in F1. Seamless gb is an example. Found outside of F1.
I am sure F1 teams search about these kind of things.

[wuzak]

"HCCI is limited in terms of rpm, torque, & operational band, or range... we've research both ( HCCI & HLSI), of course."

F1 engines also make race-pace within an "rpm... limited... operational band..." too, of course..

I believe HCCI is limited to a lower rpm operation band. That is, it may work at 2,000 - 6,000rpm, but won't work at 10,000 - 12,000rpm.

[Singabule]

Surely no manufacturer or engineer design and produce HCCI thing in perfect, in part and full load or throttle, thats fact. HCCI only occur on very limited range in perfect controlled environment in lab. Even if there are engines produced with HCCI in mind, that process only occur on very limited range. I would not be surprised if we will see full HCCI on stationary engine first than automobiles. TJI is already hard, but HCCI is on another level, different animal from other galaxi. I dont buy that.

Honda will sell you a road car with HLSI ( homogeneous lean-charge spark ignition) but it does not necessarily follow
that they are def' not F1 racing with an HCCI set-up..

Honda R&D boss Keiji Ohtsu is quoted:

"HCCI is limited in terms of rpm, torque, & operational band, or range... we've research both ( HCCI & HLSI), of course."

F1 engines also make race-pace within an "rpm... limited... operational band..." too, of course..

Hello Jaw, but off course they cant fine tune HLSI along with HCCI on the part throttle, since HLSI is basically DI that is accumulate fuel on the center of cylinder below plug, the CC should be different than HCCI (flat crown). Indeed they could offer us with HLSI, but such an lower output is not acceptable. But if they can fine tune HLSI with current F1 engine, what is better, air pocket ala HLSI or lean turbulent burn ala TJI? Interesting