2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[TNTHead]

It looks like Red Bull's transformation into a corporate, shareholder run team has been completed (for better or worse). The Mateschitz spirit is gone. It was already revealing that Marko and Mekies didn't have any say in the drivers. Marko wanted Dunne but was vetoed. Mekies wanted Tsunoda and also rejected. Marko seemingly sacked because he's a character that doesn't exactly fit today's world.

It remains to be seen how this impacts the team in the long run. I'm sure someone is going to decide that RBPT is too expensive, the same way Alpine shareholders decided that Renault power was too expensive. I just cannot see the math that supports RBPT. You can buy a decent PU for far less. Customer engines can win races and championships as both Red Bull and Mclaren have proven.

If they'll build a somewhat decent PU they probably stick to it, the investment is already made.

I don't know whether there is any interest of Chinese manufacturers, but the global production of automotive is shifting rapidly towards Asia. I cannot imagine this has no impact on F1. If the PU and/or team is not working in the long run (which is premature right now) they'll be probably be up for grabs.

[leblanc]

I don't know whether there is any interest of Chinese manufacturers, but the global production of automotive is shifting rapidly towards Asia. I cannot imagine this has no impact on F1. If the PU and/or team is not working in the long run (which is premature right now) they'll be probably be up for grabs.

There is no interest. With China's GDP growth at <3% the past two years, coupled with an $18T (USD) housing crash, the CCP needs to settle the structural issues with its economy before it'll spend money on Formula 1 (a niche within a niche).

Chinese companies by far do not invest in brand building. They do spend money on performance marketing for world-known brands. However, the ROI on owning an F1 team isn't - at all - large enough to interest the Chinese, who sold their Formula E team, China Racing, in 2023, even though BEVs were dramatically increasing in popularity worldwide (30% plus in the CDM).

[AR3-GP]

We've lost the insider who talks to the media about the problems with the car (Marko). Will anyone replace him? Otherwise, it's often difficult to learn anything meaningful about developments and performance during the race weekend.

[Paa]

It remains to be seen how this impacts the team in the long run. I'm sure someone is going to decide that RBPT is too expensive, the same way Alpine shareholders decided that Renault power was too expensive. I just cannot see the math that supports RBPT. You can buy a decent PU for far less. Customer engines can win races and championships as both Red Bull and Mclaren have proven.

It is not that easy. Red Bull spent almost 10 years stuck with a useless Renault engine, because they could not buy a decent one. The current rules make sure you would get an engine, but nothing guarantees an actually good one.
And when they finally got a decent one from Honda, they had to face the Honda corporate board, going in and out from the sport leaving them very exposed.
So RBPT is not about performance, but rather being in control.
They don't fund RBPT because they think they will be best, but it is rather a defensive move, not to get exposed again.
I'm sure they wouldn't have gone for this if they could have just bought a Merc engine for fraction of the price.

[f1isgood]

It remains to be seen how this impacts the team in the long run. I'm sure someone is going to decide that RBPT is too expensive, the same way Alpine shareholders decided that Renault power was too expensive. I just cannot see the math that supports RBPT. You can buy a decent PU for far less. Customer engines can win races and championships as both Red Bull and Mclaren have proven.

It is not that easy. Red Bull spent almost 10 years stuck with a useless Renault engine, because they could not buy a decent one. The current rules make sure you would get an engine, but nothing guarantees an actually good one.
And when they finally got a decent one from Honda, they had to face the Honda corporate board, going in and out from the sport leaving them very exposed.
So RBPT is not about performance, but rather being in control.
They don't fund RBPT because they think they will be best, but it is rather a defensive move, not to get exposed again.
I'm sure they wouldn't have gone for this if they could have just bought a Merc engine for fraction of the price.

RBPT was about Horner ensuring Red Bull were in control. No one else. He was reported to have blocked off Porsche taking over the team. But yes, indeed, you are right that Red Bull were completely --- from an engine point of view because of Honda.

But now Red Bull is also run by a corporate board after all. I think AR3's points are very valid in the medium term even, let alone long term.

Just saw a picture of Horner, Newey and Marko smiling, presumably taken in 2023. The team lost the core very quickly and due to politics. Even if they do well next regulations, I don't see Red Bull remaining a top team in the long run. There's still a lot of the influence of these people that exists at Milton Keynes... including the entire current technical leadership. So while not all is lost, I do see the technical leadership moving away if Horner/Newey are back together at some point or even if they are at different teams. Wheatley took away quite a lot of staff with himself.

[f1isgood]

We've lost the insider who talks to the media about the problems with the car (Marko). Will anyone replace him? Otherwise, it's often difficult to learn anything meaningful about developments and performance during the race weekend.

But it's hot --- mostly though. Delusionally optimistic.

[AR3-GP]

We've lost the insider who talks to the media about the problems with the car (Marko). Will anyone replace him? Otherwise, it's often difficult to learn anything meaningful about developments and performance during the race weekend.

But it's hot --- mostly though. Delusionally optimistic.

I don't mean the "we're catching Mclaren in Imola fairy tales" There were discussions about upcoming upgrades and PUs hidden in the fluff.

[Watto]

It remains to be seen how this impacts the team in the long run. I'm sure someone is going to decide that RBPT is too expensive, the same way Alpine shareholders decided that Renault power was too expensive. I just cannot see the math that supports RBPT. You can buy a decent PU for far less. Customer engines can win races and championships as both Red Bull and Mclaren have proven.

It is not that easy. Red Bull spent almost 10 years stuck with a useless Renault engine, because they could not buy a decent one. The current rules make sure you would get an engine, but nothing guarantees an actually good one.
And when they finally got a decent one from Honda, they had to face the Honda corporate board, going in and out from the sport leaving them very exposed.
So RBPT is not about performance, but rather being in control.
They don't fund RBPT because they think they will be best, but it is rather a defensive move, not to get exposed again.
I'm sure they wouldn't have gone for this if they could have just bought a Merc engine for fraction of the price.

RBPT was about Horner ensuring Red Bull were in control. No one else. He was reported to have blocked off Porsche taking over the team. But yes, indeed, you are right that Red Bull were completely --- from an engine point of view because of Honda.

But now Red Bull is also run by a corporate board after all. I think AR3's points are very valid in the medium term even, let alone long term.

Just saw a picture of Horner, Newey and Marko smiling, presumably taken in 2023. The team lost the core very quickly and due to politics. Even if they do well next regulations, I don't see Red Bull remaining a top team in the long run. There's still a lot of the influence of these people that exists at Milton Keynes... including the entire current technical leadership. So while not all is lost, I do see the technical leadership moving away if Horner/Newey are back together at some point or even if they are at different teams. Wheatley took away quite a lot of staff with himself.

Horner on how own had zero ability to block the Porsche deal He can't control what shareholders too with their shares. Use his position as CEO to try and convince Mateschitz and Yoovidhya not to sell their cars to Porsche sure. Maybe he could block a customer deal - possible depending on how the team was structured


But agree it's become a corporate brand, I think this is. bit of what Newey saw coming and was probably also a bit of the reason behind leaving, he had talked before about why he enjoyed RBR in the early days there was no corporate shenanigans Mateschitz .


I wasn't a fan of Marko but ....this is an interesting call. The same end result in the end to selling to Porsche I think.

[f1isgood]

It is not that easy. Red Bull spent almost 10 years stuck with a useless Renault engine, because they could not buy a decent one. The current rules make sure you would get an engine, but nothing guarantees an actually good one.
And when they finally got a decent one from Honda, they had to face the Honda corporate board, going in and out from the sport leaving them very exposed.
So RBPT is not about performance, but rather being in control.
They don't fund RBPT because they think they will be best, but it is rather a defensive move, not to get exposed again.
I'm sure they wouldn't have gone for this if they could have just bought a Merc engine for fraction of the price.

RBPT was about Horner ensuring Red Bull were in control. No one else. He was reported to have blocked off Porsche taking over the team. But yes, indeed, you are right that Red Bull were completely --- from an engine point of view because of Honda.

But now Red Bull is also run by a corporate board after all. I think AR3's points are very valid in the medium term even, let alone long term.

Just saw a picture of Horner, Newey and Marko smiling, presumably taken in 2023. The team lost the core very quickly and due to politics. Even if they do well next regulations, I don't see Red Bull remaining a top team in the long run. There's still a lot of the influence of these people that exists at Milton Keynes... including the entire current technical leadership. So while not all is lost, I do see the technical leadership moving away if Horner/Newey are back together at some point or even if they are at different teams. Wheatley took away quite a lot of staff with himself.

Horner on how own had zero ability to block the Porsche deal He can't control what shareholders too with their shares. Use his position as CEO to try and convince Mateschitz and Yoovidhya not to sell their cars to Porsche sure. Maybe he could block a customer deal - possible depending on how the team was structured


But agree it's become a corporate brand, I think this is. bit of what Newey saw coming and was probably also a bit of the reason behind leaving, he had talked before about why he enjoyed RBR in the early days there was no corporate shenanigans Mateschitz .


I wasn't a fan of Marko but ....this is an interesting call. The same end result in the end to selling to Porsche I think.

Yoovidhya was fully behind Horner that time and there were reports that he had to sell some shares for certain reasons related to his son, which also got Horner kicked out as the Austrian side of the team won... eventually...

So you are only technically correct here but Horner was the one who no'ed Porsche from taking a 51% stake in the team... and Didi wasn't doing very well around the Porsche talks time if I remember correctly. So at that point it was fully Horner doing his thing.

Newey did see this coming clearly and went to the team that obviously has a man like Didi at the top and is craving for success.

[f1isgood]

We've lost the insider who talks to the media about the problems with the car (Marko). Will anyone replace him? Otherwise, it's often difficult to learn anything meaningful about developments and performance during the race weekend.

But it's hot --- mostly though. Delusionally optimistic.

I don't mean the "we're catching Mclaren in Imola fairy tales" There were discussions about upcoming upgrades and PUs hidden in the fluff.

He said we will win second half of next year

[Zhouvinazzi]

It's quite sad to me to see all of these important guys leave, and especially in the context of how the sport has changed and the direction it seems to be going in. Of course I'll continue watching even after Max moves on to other series, but I do wonder if at some point one of those series will end up replacing formula 1 with a focus on ICE and smaller, simpler cars on a limited schedule of traditional race tracks. Something like how formula 1 was in the early 00s. Surely at least some passionate drivers and engineers would flee to such a series, even without the prospect of higher salaries.

[Watto]

RBPT was about Horner ensuring Red Bull were in control. No one else. He was reported to have blocked off Porsche taking over the team. But yes, indeed, you are right that Red Bull were completely --- from an engine point of view because of Honda.

But now Red Bull is also run by a corporate board after all. I think AR3's points are very valid in the medium term even, let alone long term.

Just saw a picture of Horner, Newey and Marko smiling, presumably taken in 2023. The team lost the core very quickly and due to politics. Even if they do well next regulations, I don't see Red Bull remaining a top team in the long run. There's still a lot of the influence of these people that exists at Milton Keynes... including the entire current technical leadership. So while not all is lost, I do see the technical leadership moving away if Horner/Newey are back together at some point or even if they are at different teams. Wheatley took away quite a lot of staff with himself.

Horner on how own had zero ability to block the Porsche deal He can't control what shareholders too with their shares. Use his position as CEO to try and convince Mateschitz and Yoovidhya not to sell their cars to Porsche sure. Maybe he could block a customer deal - possible depending on how the team was structured


But agree it's become a corporate brand, I think this is. bit of what Newey saw coming and was probably also a bit of the reason behind leaving, he had talked before about why he enjoyed RBR in the early days there was no corporate shenanigans Mateschitz .


I wasn't a fan of Marko but ....this is an interesting call. The same end result in the end to selling to Porsche I think.

Yoovidhya was fully behind Horner that time and there were reports that he had to sell some shares for certain reasons related to his son, which also got Horner kicked out as the Austrian side of the team won... eventually...

So you are only technically correct here but Horner was the one who no'ed Porsche from taking a 51% stake in the team... and Didi wasn't doing very well around the Porsche talks time if I remember correctly. So at that point it was fully Horner doing his thing.

Newey did see this coming clearly and went to the team that obviously has a man like Didi at the top and is craving for success.

He had Yoovidhya's support sure.

But the RBPT/ walking away from Porsche was made while Mateschitz was still there it was his decision - granted he was ill and perhaps couldn't be bothered fighting but that was well as the new wind tunnel were signed off by Mateschitz , And I doubt Yoovidhya would have overruled him - given some assurances he would help out perhaps - funding etc - Yovidhya had 51% of RB GMbh/ the teams parent company but the company was always really run with Mateschitz in control .



I don't dispute Horner didn't want the Porsche dead as he would have lost control, He saw that coming I think.

I think what Mateschitz saw coming though was that the team would become corporate either way and more funding from an outside source was probably a good thing if Red Bull started toot be able to justify the costs.


I would take a guess and say Mateschitz probably discussed with Marko and he was on board too with going thigh own route. Mateshitz probably hoped it would work without him but we know it now....


I just disagree that Horner on his own had no ability to stop the move unless it was agreed from above

He was still well enough to make the big calls one of the last was his signing off on the wind tunnel


I am not so convinced the current board would have signed off on that or RBPT, likely would have gone back to Honda once they U turned

[AR3-GP]

It remains to be seen how this impacts the team in the long run. I'm sure someone is going to decide that RBPT is too expensive, the same way Alpine shareholders decided that Renault power was too expensive. I just cannot see the math that supports RBPT. You can buy a decent PU for far less. Customer engines can win races and championships as both Red Bull and Mclaren have proven.

It is not that easy. Red Bull spent almost 10 years stuck with a useless Renault engine, because they could not buy a decent one. The current rules make sure you would get an engine, but nothing guarantees an actually good one.
And when they finally got a decent one from Honda, they had to face the Honda corporate board, going in and out from the sport leaving them very exposed.
So RBPT is not about performance, but rather being in control.
They don't fund RBPT because they think they will be best, but it is rather a defensive move, not to get exposed again.
I'm sure they wouldn't have gone for this if they could have just bought a Merc engine for fraction of the price.

At the time there were discussions between Red Bull and Honda to continue a collaboration beyond 2025. Red Bull should have taken that deal. Honda PUs have won championships in multiple generations of F1.

[Paa]

At the time there were discussions between Red Bull and Honda to continue a collaboration beyond 2025. Red Bull should have taken that deal. Honda PUs have won championships in multiple generations of F1.

Really? As I remember Honda was pulled out completely and only decided to get back after RBPT was founded. But I could be wrong, I did not check, this is just how I remember it.
Anyway, it's done so Red Bull now just needs to bring the best out of it.

To be honest, I'm kind of optimistic. They have the best infrastructure and they hired lots of experienced personnel so it can't be too bad. I guess there will be some hiccups at the beginning which is normal for all new organizations, but once they iron those out during the first year or so, it should be good in the medium term, I expect.

[Watto]

At the time there were discussions between Red Bull and Honda to continue a collaboration beyond 2025. Red Bull should have taken that deal. Honda PUs have won championships in multiple generations of F1.

Really? As I remember Honda was pulled out completely and only decided to get back after RBPT was founded. But I could be wrong, I did not check, this is just how I remember it.
Anyway, it's done so Red Bull now just needs to bring the best out of it.

To be honest, I'm kind of optimistic. They have the best infrastructure and they hired lots of experienced personnel so it can't be too bad. I guess there will be some hiccups at the beginning which is normal for all new organizations, but once they iron those out during the first year or so, it should be good in the medium term, I expect.

Yes that is what I recall too. But I think it was too very early in the process where you could cut your losses. I'd be curious though if at the same state the current group running the team would go down the same path in signing up with Honda, think they likely would but that is anyones guess.