Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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[quote=godlameroso post]
If only there was a way to harvest that vibration energy. Alas we can only burn stuff for energy, harnessing resonant frequencies and using them to do work is beyond our comprehension.
[/quote]

resonance is eg an accumulation of tiny energy taxes levied on the continuous forcing action and moved to and fro between 2 storage vaults
even a small action 'harnessing' resonance will drain or at least cap the accumulation
thats what the fluid in shock absorbers does and the rubber in crankshaft dampers does

the MGU-K should without energy cost or profit rapidly contain transmission resonance (surging) visible in real-time ie below about 5 Hz
if Honda aren't doing this they should be and they have sub-optimal K behaviour
though to surging above about 10 Hz the K's inertia etc may make things worse anyway

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HPD
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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@AMUS:

- The new engine must be ready for Canada. The core piece is a new cylinder head with strong modifications in the combustion process. Honda could reach its target at the start of the season (Mercedes 2016).

- Hasegawa: "The characteristics of this engine that is running, is shown differently to the test bench"

- MGUH: With the new architecture, the turbine and the compressor are more separated. The longer shaft produces other vibrations. This would be a possible explanation for the bearing damage.

- The big attack on Mercedes is postponed to 2018. The Japanese need a completely new engine

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 25243.html

Edax
Edax
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Andres125sx wrote:
07 May 2017, 10:19
Sasha wrote:
06 May 2017, 17:25
A friendly reminder for the lost.
Honda concept does not work as planned, but that should not mean the project must be stopped and start from scratch again, right?

Or it´s so flawed they really have to start from scratch again?


I was expecting they can solve those problems for next allocation. That´s what Hasegawa said after all. But if they have to start a new project and wait until next season.... that would be worst news

Are you sure about this Shasha? What you´re saying is VERY serious...
I think it is also the wrong way to go. When you have such persistent problems in my experience most of the times the design process was flawed.

Jumping to a green field solution is then tempting but very dangerous as you cannot trust your design capabilities.

It is then always prefferable to muddle on and try to get your current design to work. Even if you don't get it fully up to spec, your likely to learn where you went wrong the first time, and that learning allows you to fix your design process.

peterg
peterg
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Joined: 29 Apr 2015, 22:04

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Does the following summarise the current understanding:

Block+head stiffness in combination with gearbox and operational rev range results in resonance that destroys the electrical integrity of the in block mgu-h. New stiffer heads and gearbox casing planned.

The combustion concept worked well in single cylinder dyno. But the intake and exh resonance / firing sequence of the V6 causes the lean burn combustion to fail. As a result the plan is to move to a new combustion concept.

The current engine with some improvments in intake exh and rev range is about the same on power and fuel consumption as the 2016 Ferrari, but is probably smaller and lighter with lower centre of gravity.

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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The current engine is probably slightly better than 2015 Ferrari PU as is, or at the same level as their 2016 unit. The best they can hope for this year is to rival Mercedes 2016 engine unfortunately, but at least it would put them on par with the current Renault engine.
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hurril
hurril
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Joined: 07 Oct 2014, 13:02

Re: Honda Power Unit

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godlameroso wrote:
06 May 2017, 15:27
hurril wrote:
06 May 2017, 13:59
godlameroso wrote:
06 May 2017, 13:09


Simple, the AF mixture has nowhere else to go as the piston moves in it's compression stroke. The reason the pre chamber mixture is richer is because the volume in the pre chamber is a fraction of the main chamber.

For example a big ol beer mug can be filled a quarter of the way, but it's more than enough to fill a shot glass to the brim.

As you can imagine, creating the proper conditions in the pre and main chambers is not easy, particularly when you have to orchestrate it between 6 odd firing cylinders.

And the more precise you try to be, which is needed for maximum power, the harder it is. Because one wrong move and preignition will destroy the engine in short order.
You are confusing/ conflating volume with richness/ concentration.
I'm trying to keep it simple for the sake of discussion. Think of it this way, food in a dining room only occupies a very small amount of the dining room, it's a very lean air to food ratio. When you put food in your mouth(our pre-chamber) the food to air ratio becomes rich.
Still, you are conflating concentration with volume. The part that I would like a technical and correct explanation of, is how the pre-chamber reaches a richer (higher) concentration. I do not need stupid analogies. Dining room and putting food in my mouth? Come on man :)

PhillipM
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Yes, it's nothing to do with reducing the volume, you'd still have the same A/F, you still need to concentrate the area the fuel charge is held within the volume to the pre-chamber.

JuanjoTS
JuanjoTS
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Joined: 14 Dec 2015, 14:45
Location: Kingdom of Valéncia, Spain

Re: Honda Power Unit

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hurril wrote:
07 May 2017, 16:44
godlameroso wrote:
06 May 2017, 15:27
hurril wrote:
06 May 2017, 13:59


You are confusing/ conflating volume with richness/ concentration.
The same mixture inside a much smaller volume (mini combustion chamber) with the same spark that used to ignite the whole chamber, does not need to be richer, is used precisely to be able to run with leaner fuel

I'm trying to keep it simple for the sake of discussion. Think of it this way, food in a dining room only occupies a very small amount of the dining room, it's a very lean air to food ratio. When you put food in your mouth(our pre-chamber) the food to air ratio becomes rich.
Still, you are conflating concentration with volume. The part that I would like a technical and correct explanation of, is how the pre-chamber reaches a richer (higher) concentration. I do not need stupid analogies. Dining room and putting food in my mouth? Come on man :)
You really can not explain it better than Goldameroso has done.
Last edited by JuanjoTS on 07 May 2017, 20:13, edited 2 times in total.

Sasha
Sasha
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Joined: 07 Jul 2013, 07:43

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Andres125sx wrote:
07 May 2017, 10:19
Sasha wrote:
06 May 2017, 17:25
A friendly reminder for the lost.

Honda's now CC doesn't work as planned.(Simon's design)

So it will need to be replaced with a new design.(heads and pistons)

It might not be ready until 2018 season because Honda must do the D in the R&D that they didn't do the first time.
Hope is it is ready after the Summer break this season.
Honda concept does not work as planned, but that should not mean the project must be stopped and start from scratch again, right?

Or it´s so flawed they really have to start from scratch again?


I was expecting they can solve those problems for next allocation. That´s what Hasegawa said after all. But if they have to start a new project and wait until next season.... that would be worst news

Are you sure about this Shasha? What you´re saying is VERY serious...
All you have to do is look at the product on the track now to know the problem is VERY serious.

They are not really starting new with the CC just switching to the other engineering team's design.(there was three designs tested......Gille Simon's was just lighter with better fuel effincency)

It seams this CC just doesn't work in the real world.Just melts pistons when run at the right A/F ratio.(to make power with great fuel effincency) Vibration caused?

They also overlooked the problem with putting the Compressor upfront because they already used a shorter shaft split turbo the past seasons.They was wrong.(that was a big headache for MB too)

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Whetever the fixes are Honda cannot afford to wait till 2018 to deploy them! They must test anything and everything this year in the races! That is when u can see progress being made. Case in point: Ferrari 2015 to 2017. We saw Ferrari change so much the arrangement of the auxiliaries around the engine even going back to some elements from the 2014 design for 2017. Honda needs to get things on the track without worrying about failures. The embarrassment cannot get any worse.
Last edited by PlatinumZealot on 07 May 2017, 19:00, edited 1 time in total.
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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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They have to get İCE job done firstly. If they can introduce a PU with same power with 2016 Merc PU after that they can consentrate on ERS and more power on ICE with confidence. I think that will be good working base for them and they can come very good in 2018.

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loner
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Joined: 26 Feb 2016, 18:34

Re: Honda Power Unit

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so according to the rumors
with strong advice from outside consultants this current spec was built.

Simon's design which we never saw the max power due to flaws make it melt the pistons
the Canada revised head and pistons a Honda's engineers design which should reach Mercedes 2016 level.
some modifications to the revised PU to reach the max power they can extract for 2017 around Spa gp.
para bellum.

JuanjoTS
JuanjoTS
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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hurril wrote:
07 May 2017, 23:07
JuanjoTS wrote:
07 May 2017, 18:08
hurril wrote:
07 May 2017, 16:44


Still, you are conflating concentration with volume. The part that I would like a technical and correct explanation of, is how the pre-chamber reaches a richer (higher) concentration. I do not need stupid analogies. Dining room and putting food in my mouth? Come on man :)
You really can not explain it better than Goldameroso has done.
I am asking what puts the food in the mouth ffs. No more stupid analogies.
When someone tries to explain something you do not understand the least should be polite. You asked 3 times the same, do not talk about stupid analogies to a gentleman who with good heart and with the best intentions tried to explain what he does not understand. Need to insult? If you disagree with an argument do you need to insult or put negatives? Some here act like the Holy Inquisition, would beg a little more respect and companionship.

Changing the subject, the problem of vibrations, can not solve them in a provisional way copying existing systems? A glass cup explodes with a frequency X, if you apply a slight pressure in the cup, the frequency of rupture changes, in certain type of oil platforms applies this principle to protect them, could not apply pressure to the vibrating parts to reduce them the maximum possible?

glenntws
glenntws
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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I understand your Problem and I also think we could explain this a bit better. So I will try that :D

Since the pre-chamber is mostly likely fed by the main-chamber charge without it's own injector, it's important to not only achieve a good "cleaning" of the pre-chamber during the exhaust stroke, but also controlling the fuel concentration of the part of the mixture which goes into it.

To feed the pre-chamber precisely, you need to control the fuel injection timing to the right position of the piston and most impportantly to the right movements in the main chamber. This heavily depends not only on intake Timing,but also to the intake port shape. If you have a side-mounted injector, the goal would be to create a heavy charging motion with a tendency to create a big swirl counterwise (if exhaust is right and intake is left). This is exactly achieved by having a "mountain"-type piston and a very high angle of the intake port.
If you achieve this, you are able to allow a charge motion into the pre-chamber. This can be intesified with a asymmetric design of the pre-chamber. Now for the mixture part. If you have your tumble motion you need to time the injection properly to allow the injector to almost directly inject the fuel into the chamber with one fuel jet, or you decide to inject the fuel primarily into the main chamber ant time it correctly to allow a richer mixture in the pre-chamber. The first option is simpler for operation but harder to construct because you need to have a "extravagant" Sport for the injector, the later is harder to controlm but way simpler to contruct.

The second Problem is the "cleaning". This heavily depends on the timing of the exhaust valves and the overlap, but also very strongly on the shape of the pre-chamber, because it (in cooperation with the main chamber design) has to allow the charge to leave the chamber properly without getting into much trouble with the main charge motion.



Now, if you think these are all just simple expectations from me: They're not. This is based upon the simulations I've made with my own project. If you have interest, I could tell you a bit more about the charge in multiple photos in the next days, but for know I have one picture, where you can see how the ports, the main- and the pre-chamber look like.

If you wonder how this engine will work: Using direct injection and trying to directly feed the pre-chamber during the compression stroke, the goal is to achieve a slightly richer mixture in the pre-chamber (which makes up about 22% of the volume at TDC) and a slightly lean mixture in the main-chamber to average on a stochiometric level. The idea is a combustion, which always firstly occurs in the pre-chamber to auto-ignite the outside mixture in a form of HCCI.

The pre-chamber mixture is the "pressure booster" in the ignition cycle and allows to combine full control with a high efficiency. The pre-chamber mixture can be auto-ignited after the HCCI-principle if the engine is in the right operation engine (which get's increased by the possibility of a richer mixture) of with a spark plug.
To allow a high-efficiency combustion in the pre-chamber even with spark-plug operation, the pre-chamber is designed asymmetrically to achieve extremely high levels of turbulence which allows for very fast combustion.


Now, here a picture of the chamber design with the piston at BDC.
Image

glenntws
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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I don't think it is a good idea to further increase the the load on the parts. Such loads are also able to destroy the parts if the circumstances fit so a correction of the strcuture woulg be your best and safest and the only right bet.