2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[Abarth]

Not a directly related question, but of a ceratin relevance:

We talk about radial compressors here, with a isentropic efficiency of about 70...80%.
Does anyone know where the efficiency of a comparable sized screw compressor (something like Mercedes used some years ago) is?

[Craigy]

Not a directly related question, but of a ceratin relevance:

We talk about radial compressors here, with a isentropic efficiency of about 70...80%.
Does anyone know where the efficiency of a comparable sized screw compressor (something like Mercedes used some years ago) is?

Wildly innaccurate estimates aside, something like 70-85% for the radial and 65-75% for the screw-type, according to this: http://www.jmcampbell.com/tip-of-the-mo ... fficiency/

[Tommy Cookers]

surely efficiency can always (and generally will) be higher in designs for lower PR ?

higher CR should be possible at (currently Honda-style ???) higher rpm/lower boost than the usual 10500-12000 ish rpm regime
but CR is now limited by rule
and anyway (as Gilles Simon said) super high CR is unobtainable for practical reasons of valve envelope size

[Holm86]

[63l8qrrfy6]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS47125tUzk&t=589s

Noice!

Some observations:

The carbon fibre ducting has the A surface on the inside while the untooled outside surface is cheaper to produce and is better for bonding on other carbon fibre bits such as the hose guides on the runners. Several inserts/bosses have been bonded in the lay-up.
The small hoses have push-in fittings (most likely titanium) on the intercooler end and are kept in place with retainer plates.


It's pretty interesting that the intercooler has flexible couplings at all ends and is also mounted on isolators. This seems a bit weird as the reaction forces due to the boost pressure acting on inlet/outlets will try to rock the unit on its mounts. The lightweight machining detail on the runner flanges is insane.

I think the unit that goes straight after the runner contains the variable trumpets - the linkage to the right of the flange at 3:17 looks similar to the wastegate actuator linkage (probably a more recent photo as that was not allowed in 2014). The green stickers are probably temp strips.

The wastegate is either inconel 625 or 718. Bolts are likely some kind of nickel or cobalt-nickel alloy.
That butterfly valve must be fairly restrictive when fully open. Not sure the dividers serve other purpose than to provide mechanical stops for the flap. Wonder if a guillotine-type valve would work better as the mechanical stops can be out of the flow path and it should not cause a pressure drop when fully open.

The actuator looks fairly large given that the hydraulic pumps usually run at over 100 bar and that butterfly valves don't generally need loads of torque. There are aerospace hydraulic actuators roughly half the size of that. That buff lever with a pinch bolt looks a bit overkill too but given the extreme temperature it might be adequate.

[wuzak]

I think the unit that goes straight after the runner contains the variable trumpets - the linkage to the right of the flange at 3:17 looks similar to the wastegate actuator linkage (probably a more recent photo as that was not allowed in 2014). The green stickers are probably temp strips.

Variable trumpets were not allowed in 2014.
Ferrari didn't adopt a variable inlet system until 2016, at which time they had a different intercooling concept.

[63l8qrrfy6]

I think the unit that goes straight after the runner contains the variable trumpets - the linkage to the right of the flange at 3:17 looks similar to the wastegate actuator linkage (probably a more recent photo as that was not allowed in 2014). The green stickers are probably temp strips.

Variable trumpets were not allowed in 2014.
Ferrari didn't adopt a variable inlet system until 2016, at which time they had a different intercooling concept.

Did they not have one in 2015? Thought it was legal then too. It's also possible that the linkage is the throttle actuator but it looks a bit high. V8s had throttles right up against the ports.

[Powerslide]

i wonder how much forces are used to circulate water for that chargercooler...being f1 im sure its on the high side

[wuzak]

I think the unit that goes straight after the runner contains the variable trumpets - the linkage to the right of the flange at 3:17 looks similar to the wastegate actuator linkage (probably a more recent photo as that was not allowed in 2014). The green stickers are probably temp strips.

Variable trumpets were not allowed in 2014.
Ferrari didn't adopt a variable inlet system until 2016, at which time they had a different intercooling concept.

Did they not have one in 2015? Thought it was legal then too. It's also possible that the linkage is the throttle actuator but it looks a bit high. V8s had throttles right up against the ports.

They were allowed, but Ferrari did not develop them. Chose to use tokens on other areas.

[MrPotatoHead]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS47125tUzk&t=589s

Noice!

Some observations:

The carbon fibre ducting has the A surface on the inside while the untooled outside surface is cheaper to produce and is better for bonding on other carbon fibre bits such as the hose guides on the runners. Several inserts/bosses have been bonded in the lay-up.
The small hoses have push-in fittings (most likely titanium) on the intercooler end and are kept in place with retainer plates.

The wastegate is either inconel 625 or 718. Bolts are likely some kind of nickel or cobalt-nickel alloy.
That butterfly valve must be fairly restrictive when fully open. Not sure the dividers serve other purpose than to provide mechanical stops for the flap. Wonder if a guillotine-type valve would work better as the mechanical stops can be out of the flow path and it should not cause a pressure drop when fully open.

The reason for having the nicer surface on the inside is because that is where the airflow is and the outside surface is irrelevant, not because of being easier to bond to.
Plus as you stated it would cost a lot more and take a lot more time to produce using a double sided mold - just for looks that they don't want anyone seeing.

The fittings you mention are all aluminium also. 6061 is used for all of the F1 charge coolers / heat exchangers, the walls being around 1.5mm thick (you'll have to take my word for that) - except where they need threaded inserts.

For sure a nice CNC job on the Wastegate for sure - Inconel is fun to machine.

[63l8qrrfy6]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS47125tUzk&t=589s

Noice!

Some observations:

The carbon fibre ducting has the A surface on the inside while the untooled outside surface is cheaper to produce and is better for bonding on other carbon fibre bits such as the hose guides on the runners. Several inserts/bosses have been bonded in the lay-up.
The small hoses have push-in fittings (most likely titanium) on the intercooler end and are kept in place with retainer plates.

The wastegate is either inconel 625 or 718. Bolts are likely some kind of nickel or cobalt-nickel alloy.
That butterfly valve must be fairly restrictive when fully open. Not sure the dividers serve other purpose than to provide mechanical stops for the flap. Wonder if a guillotine-type valve would work better as the mechanical stops can be out of the flow path and it should not cause a pressure drop when fully open.

The reason for having the nicer surface on the inside is because that is where the airflow is and the outside surface is irrelevant, not because of being easier to bond to.
Plus as you stated it would cost a lot more and take a lot more time to produce using a double sided mold - just for looks that they don't want anyone seeing.

The fittings you mention are all aluminium also. 6061 is used for all of the F1 charge coolers / heat exchangers, the walls being around 1.5mm thick (you'll have to take my word for that) - except where they need threaded inserts.

For sure a nice CNC job on the Wastegate for sure - Inconel is fun to machine.

My point was that you can tool the outside surface too (or at least intensify it with a silicon mat) but they chose not to. The reason why you absolutely need tooling on the inside was pretty obvious I would have thought.

I can guarantee that the hydraulic fittings are not aluminium. The water ones might well be, but the increase in mass with titanium is so small it's usually not worth the risk. How many failures have there been this season due to leaks ?
Manufacturers go to extreme with these joints and it's not uncommon to use 100% inspected o rings and add backup rings too.

I wonder if the wastegate might actually be laser sintered. There's about a dozen companies in Europe doing it for various grades of inconel. It is probably getting to the stage where it is less of a headache than machining it.

[MrPotatoHead]

Noice!

Some observations:

The carbon fibre ducting has the A surface on the inside while the untooled outside surface is cheaper to produce and is better for bonding on other carbon fibre bits such as the hose guides on the runners. Several inserts/bosses have been bonded in the lay-up.
The small hoses have push-in fittings (most likely titanium) on the intercooler end and are kept in place with retainer plates.

The wastegate is either inconel 625 or 718. Bolts are likely some kind of nickel or cobalt-nickel alloy.
That butterfly valve must be fairly restrictive when fully open. Not sure the dividers serve other purpose than to provide mechanical stops for the flap. Wonder if a guillotine-type valve would work better as the mechanical stops can be out of the flow path and it should not cause a pressure drop when fully open.

The reason for having the nicer surface on the inside is because that is where the airflow is and the outside surface is irrelevant, not because of being easier to bond to.
Plus as you stated it would cost a lot more and take a lot more time to produce using a double sided mold - just for looks that they don't want anyone seeing.

The fittings you mention are all aluminium also. 6061 is used for all of the F1 charge coolers / heat exchangers, the walls being around 1.5mm thick (you'll have to take my word for that) - except where they need threaded inserts.

For sure a nice CNC job on the Wastegate for sure - Inconel is fun to machine.

My point was that you can tool the outside surface too (or at least intensify it with a silicon mat) but they chose not to. The reason why you absolutely need tooling on the inside was pretty obvious I would have thought.

I can guarantee that the hydraulic fittings are not aluminium. The water ones might well be, but the increase in mass with titanium is so small it's usually not worth the risk. How many failures have there been this season due to leaks ?
Manufacturers go to extreme with these joints and it's not uncommon to use 100% inspected o rings and add backup rings too.

I wonder if the wastegate might actually be laser sintered. There's about a dozen companies in Europe doing it for various grades of inconel. It is probably getting to the stage where it is less of a headache than machining it.

Titanium is heavier than Aluminium for the same volume. They only use it when needed for strength, in this case an Aluminium fitting would be fine. Most everything is weight driven in F1 remember.
I've had involvement in the charge cooling parts in F1 - can't tell you any more than that though, but I know a detail or two about them.

You can see the CNC machining marks on the Wastegates in the video if you look closely.
They might have been created additively but they were certainly cnc machined. That is the thing with additive manufacturing that most people are not aware of - it almost always requires post processing / machining which adds complexities as far as fixturing and locating goes.

[Cold Fussion]

Does the liquid to air intercooler run on the same water loop as the engine cooling?

[63l8qrrfy6]

Does the liquid to air intercooler run on the same water loop as the engine cooling?

No

[MrPotatoHead]

No they have separate heat exchangers for the Engine Cooling, Oil Cooling, Hydraulic cooling and Intercooler Cooling circuits.