2025 McLaren F1 Team

[venkyhere]

We already saw this in 2022. Mercedes developed an outlier concept and there were heavy implications for the PU packaging (it retained too much heat) which compromised the power in exchange for aero gains. It was only later on when Mercedes went to a more traditional design that they were able to unlock more power for themselves and their customers.

Really ? they lacked outright grunt in 2022 ''because of aero' ? I thought they had a state of the art cooling design on their water to air heat exchangers which allowed much smaller form factor, and hence 'had the freedom' to design zero pods (that it didn't work aero-wise, is another matter). The other way around of what you are saying, basically... Even Williams started with really small sidepods. Only after a few races did teams realize that huge sidepods were needed anyway, to protect the coke bottle area from front wheel wake - something Ferrari & Redbull figured out accurately right from the start (I believe it's the reason Honda PU still retained the air to air intercoolers).

[AR3-GP]

Really ? they lacked outright grunt in 2022 ''because of aero' ? I thought they had a state of the art cooling design on their water to air heat exchangers which allowed much smaller form factor, and hence 'had the freedom' to design zero pods (that it didn't work aero-wise, is another matter). The other way around of what you are saying, basically... Even Williams started with really small sidepods. Only after a few races did teams realize that huge sidepods were needed anyway, to protect the coke bottle area from front wheel wake - something Ferrari & Redbull figured out accurately right from the start (I believe it's the reason Honda PU still retained the air to air intercoolers).

The innovation in their cooling system was the incredibly compact layout, not its efficiency. The W13 struggled a lot with engine overheating. Some examples from that year:

Melbourne: https://f1i.com/news/438027-hamilton-he ... ourne.html
Spain: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/russ ... /10309071/

Mercedes later admitted that there were a lot of compromises to the PU simply to suit the aero:

Changes to the power units inevitably have a knock-on effect to the entire car design. “The chassis team have been working very diligently and swiftly through the new regulations so they can understand where the opportunities lie, and which areas are lap time sensitive.

“We've made changes to the PU that allow the chassis team to best exploit the regulations," Thomas said. “We might want to rearrange the installation slightly or change the PU layout to get more flexibility in those lap time sensitive areas.

"“We have to cover quite a lot of possibilities to make sure that PU is ready for whatever turns up.

“We never really know how much performance, in terms of chassis performance, we are going to find," he added. “We have some very good simulation tools and of course we use those to make estimates of where the chassis will end up.

https://f1i.com/news/432367-mercedes-20 ... d-era.html


These compromises ended up hurting the overall PU performance:

Thomas describes it as a “massive tear-up” at the start of the year that compromised redoing the layout of the exhaust and the cooling systems of the car in the pursuit of aerodynamic gains, which left the front of the engine “completely different”.

The overhaul was so extensive that Mercedes changed more parts of the power unit than in any season since the start of the V6 turbo-hybrid rules in 2014.

When that resulted in a slightly underwhelming set of engine characteristics in Bahrain, the HPP team knew that it had a role to play in Mercedes recovering from being on the back foot – albeit with the freeze meaning only software changes were possible, although the specification of the MGU-K and battery could be amended until September.

https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/the- ... en-engine/

[AR3-GP]

I don't expect Mercedes to make the same mistake this time around, and rumors are they have the best PU, but similar to 2022, we won't really know until it hits the track. We just know that a Brixworth PU design is to serve the W17 chassis.

[AR3-GP]

If you'll recall, Zak Brown made a big deal out of renegotiating the contract with Mercedes.

Brown likened the updated terms of McLaren’s deal with Mercedes to now having “a seat at the table that we hadn’t had previously” with the German manufacturer.

“What it means, in reality, is we have more influence and awareness early on in their development,” he explained.

“So we’re not handed a final product without having an input into what that final product looks like and having earlier awareness of where they’re headed.

“So the things we need to design around the power unit, we’re not starting that much later than the works team.”

https://www.motorsportweek.com/2023/11/ ... s-pu-deal/

On the evidence of that interview with Wollf and Thomas, Mclaren doesn't get much of a say in the design. If Mclaren can offer some insight that also helps the factory Mercedes team, then that's the only way a Mclaren request would be supported. There is a downside to that. Mclaren has to give up IP to the factory team to get something in return.

It's similar to when Red Bull brought back the blown exhaust in 2010 (?). They had to reveal their intentions to Renault beacuse Renault had to make the blown exhaust engine maps. Renault factory team started using the blown exhaust because of the knowledge that they gained from their customer team. That's the downside to your engine supplier also being a competitor. You can't keep your IP if the innovation requires collaboration with the PU supplier.

[venkyhere]

If you'll recall, Zak Brown made a big deal out of renegotiating the contract with Mercedes.

Brown likened the updated terms of McLaren’s deal with Mercedes to now having “a seat at the table that we hadn’t had previously” with the German manufacturer.

“What it means, in reality, is we have more influence and awareness early on in their development,” he explained.

“So we’re not handed a final product without having an input into what that final product looks like and having earlier awareness of where they’re headed.

“So the things we need to design around the power unit, we’re not starting that much later than the works team.”

https://www.motorsportweek.com/2023/11/ ... s-pu-deal/

On the evidence of that interview with Wollf and Thomas, Mclaren doesn't get much of a say in the design. Brixworth has simply said they will take Mclaren's request into consideration but Mclaren can't force any changes here. If it suits the factory Mercedes team, that's how the PU will continue to develop. If Mclaren can offer some insight that also helps the factory team, then that's the only way a Mclaren request would be supported. There is a downside to that. Mclaren basically has to give up IP to the factory team to get something in return.

It's similar to when Red Bull brought back the blown exhaust in 2010 (?). They had to reveal their intentions to Renault beacuse Renault had to make the blown exhaust engine maps. Renault factory team started using the blown exhaust because of the knowledge that they gained from their customer team. That's the downside to your engine supplier also being a competitor.

So Zac Brown's 'excusive McLaren seat on the table at Brixworth' is just about paying more money than Williams/Alpine ? who is bluffing here ?

[AR3-GP]

So Zac Brown's 'excusive McLaren seat on the table at Brixworth' is just about paying more money than Williams/Alpine ? who is bluffing here ?

There's no bluff. What Zac said is probably true.

“So we’re not handed a final product without having an input into what that final product looks like and having earlier awareness of where they’re headed.

None of this means that Mclaren can influence how Mercedes develop the PU. It just means that Mclaren are kept in the loop at an earlier time, and someone at Brixworth reads the emails coming from Mclaren. There's also no evidence that Williams and Alpine don't have the same agreement that Mclaren has. That is much more logical than Mercedes having preferential treatment for one customer.

[mwillems]

[

So Zac Brown's 'excusive McLaren seat on the table at Brixworth' is just about paying more money than Williams/Alpine ? who is bluffing here ?

Engine costs to customer teams are capped at $17m, which also doesnt come out of our cost cap.

From what I understand, we can make suggestions on the engine and they can choose to ignore Mclaren lol

But what is more substantial is that there are contractuals around when we find out things. And I recall Toto saying that Mclaren find out pretty much the same time as Merc about design decisions, including things like dimensions and wotnot.

Im sure this can be gamed, but I've never seen a suggestion it is, both sides seem to say the same thing. Mclaren have said they get all the info they need with more than enough time.

[Xero]

We'll probably never know the true scale of McLaren's direct input and influence at Brixworth, but having design access throughout development means they can design their chassis around the PU with little compromise. I'm not concerned at all that it's a return of the "works-deal or bust" scenario.

Williams may have a similar agreement given they are contracted to 2030 too, I doubt Alpine will. With Mercedes looking to reduce supply to 2 teams for 2030 onwards, it does feel like McLaren are being primed for that spot. That might change if McLaren dominate Mercedes during this period mind you!

[bauc]

In my mind it would be silly for Mercedes to hide something from Mclaren at this stage, and you might ask yourselgs why is that? Well, Mclaren is now the true benchmark for Mercedes, and if they want to win it all they first need to beat Mclaren, the back to back constructors champion in F1, the first customer team to win post the naturally aspirated V6 engines era, so in my mind it is a win win, only a true benchmark can bring you forward, like Mclaren did when they ditched Honda for Renault, and found out the ugly truth they were denying all along,.

[Emag]

The extent of the deal was never really made public. All we know is that it was involved enough for Zak to claim they limited almost all of the downsides of being a customer with it. Both parties have also confirmed the deal is real (either directly or indirectly) and not some PR slip by Zak.

I think it’s safe to assume a “special cooperation” exists between them, but beyond that, trying to quantify what exactly that means, it would just be speculation because nobody knows.

In any case, it’a fairly obvious the main priority will be the works team anyway, no matter the deal. However, the most important part is just getting updated about the general direction they’re going with the design early enough, so that McLaren has the time to work on the chassis and not face nasty surprises very late in the development cycle that would require compromises.

As for “special” engine design characteristics that somehow are only exploitable by the works Mercedes team, well I believe there is no such thing. The engine will not be crippled and will receive priority, because a lot depends on getting the engine right for this formula.

If McLaren receives a power unit that is strong and competitive enough, then it’s just a matter of designing the competitive chassis. Basically business as usual. There’s more than one way of getting things right. Just because Mercedes makes some tweaks to the power unit design to fit with their chassis design philosophy that doesn’t mean that their chassis philosophy will be the best. McLaren have the chance to come up with a superior concept. They could still take advantage of other potential packaging features that work out for their own philosophy that Mercedes can overlook while focusing on their own direction.

I find it ironic for example that McLaren found a better and more efficient way to cool the Mercedes PU than the Mercedes team itself in 2025. If the technical team is good enough, they can do the same with other things as well going forward.

[Badger]

I find it ironic for example that McLaren found a better and more efficient way to cool the Mercedes PU than the Mercedes team itself in 2025. If the technical team is good enough, they can do the same with other things as well going forward.

Doesn't that just demonstrate why it's a disadvantage though? In the 4th year of an engine freeze they had a more advanced cooling system, because by that point they knew as much about the engine as Merc did and had time to design around it. But who had the more advanced PU-chassi integration in 2022 though? The zeropod is a testament to the sort of thing that only a works team could pull off.

I simply don't see why Mercedes would make their own life harder by giving McLaren nearly all the advantages of being a works team. That could easily be the difference between winning and finishing second, which is a big deal for Mercedes.

[Emag]

I find it ironic for example that McLaren found a better and more efficient way to cool the Mercedes PU than the Mercedes team itself in 2025. If the technical team is good enough, they can do the same with other things as well going forward.

Doesn't that just demonstrate why it's a disadvantage though? In the 4th year of an engine freeze they had a more advanced cooling system, because by that point they knew as much about the engine as Merc did. But who had the more advanced PU-chassi integration in 2022 though? The zeropod is a testament to the sort of thing that only a works team could pull off.

I simply don't see why Mercedes would make their own life harder by giving McLaren nearly all the advantages of being a works team. That could be the difference between winning and finishing second, which is a big deal for Mercedes.

You’re comparing different teams though. McLaren is not the team they used to be in 2022, both from available infrastructure as well as technical team composition. McLaren were faster on average than Mercedes by mid 2023 already. The 2022 McLaren car is an absolute dud, and not being a works team had absolutely nothing to do with its competitiveness level.

If McLaren does not beat, or at least is not on par with Mercedes next year, that’s all because they would not have done a good enough job and not because they are not a works team. They get the same power unit as Mercedes (unlike what it was pre 2017), and the budget cap is also still in place, so Mercedes cant literally spend a billion euros to test literally everything and brute force themselves to the most competitive package. Mercedes has no say in the matter. They can’t really withold any advantage.

It’s simply about the best technical team coming up with the best car. 2022 also does not make your point in Mercedes’ favor in my opinion, because it literally proves how wrong the works team can get the aero/chassis concept. They were so cocky that year as well. Sound familiar?

I will believe the claims when I see it unfold on-track.

[Badger]

I find it ironic for example that McLaren found a better and more efficient way to cool the Mercedes PU than the Mercedes team itself in 2025. If the technical team is good enough, they can do the same with other things as well going forward.

Doesn't that just demonstrate why it's a disadvantage though? In the 4th year of an engine freeze they had a more advanced cooling system, because by that point they knew as much about the engine as Merc did. But who had the more advanced PU-chassi integration in 2022 though? The zeropod is a testament to the sort of thing that only a works team could pull off.

I simply don't see why Mercedes would make their own life harder by giving McLaren nearly all the advantages of being a works team. That could be the difference between winning and finishing second, which is a big deal for Mercedes.

You’re comparing different teams though. McLaren is not the team they used to be in 2022, both from available infrastructure as well as technical team composition. McLaren were faster on average than Mercedes by mid 2023 already. The 2022 McLaren car is an absolute dud, and not being a works team had absolutely nothing to do with its competitiveness level.

If McLaren does not beat, or at least is not on par with Mercedes next year, that’s all because they would not have done a good enough job and not because they are not a works team. They get the same power unit as Mercedes (unlike what it was pre 2017), and the budget cap is also still in place, so Mercedes cant literally spend a billion euros to test literally everything and brute force themselves to the most competitive package. Mercedes has no say in the matter. They can’t really withold any advantage.

It’s simply about the best technical team coming up with the best car. 2022 also does not make your point in Mercedes’ favor in my opinion, because it literally proves how wrong the works team can get the aero/chassis concept. They were so cocky that year as well. Sound familiar?

I will believe the claims when I see it unfold on-track.

Sounds like you are saying works team status has no tangible benefit anymore. To me it's logical that the team which controls its engine design has an inherent advantage that is simply not afforded to customers. They design the engine according to their own needs and they will always have first mover advantage when it comes to integration between PU and chassi. It's not a guarantee of superiority compared to customers, but it's an advantage.

[mwillems]

[

So Zac Brown's 'excusive McLaren seat on the table at Brixworth' is just about paying more money than Williams/Alpine ? who is bluffing here ?

Engine costs to customer teams are capped at $17m, which also doesnt come out of our cost cap.

From what I understand, we can make suggestions on the engine and they can choose to ignore Mclaren lol

But what is more substantial is that there are contractuals around when we find out things. And I recall Toto saying that Mclaren find out pretty much the same time as Merc about design decisions, including things like dimensions and wotnot.

Im sure this can be gamed, but I've never seen a suggestion it is, both sides seem to say the same thing. Mclaren have said they get all the info they need with more than enough time.

Quotes from Zak from 2024 and the source behind my post above

https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/mcla ... ely-wrong/



So, The Race asked Brown in Abu Dhabi, how much of this success is down to McLaren finally getting its house in order and how much is it F1’s rules changing to ensure parity?

“Both,” he said.

“I mean, clearly us getting our house in order [was essential]. The biggest change, which has then brought total parity, is your engine mapping has to be the same.

“That was the differentiator between a works team and a customer team, all these different power modes that we have didn’t have to be the same. As soon as that rule came in, totally confident that you can take the engine out of Lewis [Hamilton]’s car and put it in Lando [Norris]’s car and vice versa, and it’s the same power unit.


“Where the works team [still] gets an advantage is they just have a little bit more awareness of the packaging of the engine. When they get into designing their racing car, they’ll get a little bit of a head start on packaging and design in their car.

“But I think we’ve proven this year that if you do a great job, you can overcome that.”

Clear agreements on the communication of key details and lead time give McLaren better notice of what HPP is planning than before, which helps with its own designs and development schedules. And McLaren also feels it has earned a seat at the table in terms of what HPP should do on the engine side, because it has been beating the works team, which means its suggestions now carry more weight.

That is partly because of a relationship with Mercedes High Performance Powertrains that McLaren calls “fantastic”.

While it’s true to say that McLaren’s Mercedes engine deal is very much a customer one - unlike when it was the works Mercedes team from 1995 to 2009 - it’s a little more comprehensive than the usual supply contract. It is viewed as more of a de facto semi-works team now.


“We respect that Mercedes GP will always have the final word,” says Stella.

“But we are also comfortable that we can make proposals to HPP, HPP will evaluate this proposal with MGP, and then they will make the final conversation.

“But because we are dealing with people that are very, very qualified from a technical point of view, they will all be able to recognise that a certain idea on a power unit can actually be good for everyone.


“So, in relation to McLaren, at no point could we say that not having a works power unit is a limitation to become world champion.”

[Emag]

Doesn't that just demonstrate why it's a disadvantage though? In the 4th year of an engine freeze they had a more advanced cooling system, because by that point they knew as much about the engine as Merc did. But who had the more advanced PU-chassi integration in 2022 though? The zeropod is a testament to the sort of thing that only a works team could pull off.

I simply don't see why Mercedes would make their own life harder by giving McLaren nearly all the advantages of being a works team. That could be the difference between winning and finishing second, which is a big deal for Mercedes.

You’re comparing different teams though. McLaren is not the team they used to be in 2022, both from available infrastructure as well as technical team composition. McLaren were faster on average than Mercedes by mid 2023 already. The 2022 McLaren car is an absolute dud, and not being a works team had absolutely nothing to do with its competitiveness level.

If McLaren does not beat, or at least is not on par with Mercedes next year, that’s all because they would not have done a good enough job and not because they are not a works team. They get the same power unit as Mercedes (unlike what it was pre 2017), and the budget cap is also still in place, so Mercedes cant literally spend a billion euros to test literally everything and brute force themselves to the most competitive package. Mercedes has no say in the matter. They can’t really withold any advantage.

It’s simply about the best technical team coming up with the best car. 2022 also does not make your point in Mercedes’ favor in my opinion, because it literally proves how wrong the works team can get the aero/chassis concept. They were so cocky that year as well. Sound familiar?

I will believe the claims when I see it unfold on-track.

Sounds like you are saying works team status has no tangible benefit anymore. To me it's logical that the team which controls its engine design has an inherent advantage that is simply not afforded to customers. They design the engine according to their own needs and they will always have first mover advantage when it comes to integration between PU and chassi. It's not a guarantee of superiority compared to customers, but it's an advantage.

What mwilliems replied was exactly my point. Of course there is an inherent advantage, but not a significant one which is impossible to overcome by customers, because that’s the nature of the regulations at the moment. Mercedes cannot have a hardware advantage over their customers. If this were 2014, I would give McLaren 0% chance of beating Mercedes.