Was Verstappen's 5 Second Penalty Fair?

[Manoah2u]

you seem to forget that i'm mentioning everybody getting 1 penalty, not 2. that would mean max gets 2, which still makes it unfair as then you must also give every driver a penalty for every infringement.

the whole issue is still simple as day, no matter how you put it; FIA's total inconsistancy and lack of properly handling things.

it has nothing to do whatever Jos throws out of his lungs. it has to do with how FIA handles things and it's an endless array of failures. the USA gp being the most recent.

[DoNotPause]

If everyone gets 1....why give it in the first place? Just add 5s to everyone's race time? Then Max gets another for the overtake, he will still lose P3 to Kimi.

If you said FIA are inconsistent... on the contrary, they were consistent, consistent all weekend. It's either nobody can do it or they allowed everyone to do it. This weekend, they allowed everyone to do it since they can't do anything about the kerbs. Don't forget, they race motorbikes at CotA, they can't put kerbs the height of a wall at every corner.

[turbof1]

Steven has a nice discription for the way some "debate": gratuitous negativity. I'd say mixed with way too much hatred for one driver or the other.

Maybe if we try to put things into perspective we might get to understand how we got to this situation. In the last couple of decades the emphasis concerning runoff has shifted from gravel and barriers to large fields of grippy asphalt, along with flat kerbs. The reason why is because the combination of brakes and asphalt can bring a car to a halt a lot faster than other solutions. You do need flat kerbs for that because obviously a car launched into the air has no benefit of all of this.

Combine that with the demand of the sport's decision makers to allow harder racing and you end up in a situation where all drivers, not just Verstappen or Vettel, became very greedy with their lines. And, you also end up with stewards having to decide what's the difference between greedy and too greedy. It used to be simple for them: go off track for whatever reason and you have to actively show you have not gained an advantage. Now these same stewards have to decide whether the advantage gained can be allowed or not, and that is subjective and as in this case, leads to inconsistency. And you do need some ruling on this because if they allow everything, drivers will end up cutting half the track.

So the discussion about driver steward preference is silly (along with all of the lame Ferrari International Assistance references thank you very much). It completes ignores the underlying problems: circuits are not punishing beyond track limits and stewards are forced to allow "some" off track action.

As Steven mentioned, the only way to fix it is by looking at things like kerbs. That will allow both hard racing, but also fair judgement. Without steward involvement.

[Phil]

Where on earth do you see a move to block in Kimi's driving? He took the normal racing line into the corner because he was operating under the assumption that Max wasn't going to, or able to, dive up the inside.

At the point where he sees Max has actually driven up the inside he jinks left and decelerates. Go and look at the multi-angle video and you can see him move left as Max hits the second apex, halfway alongside the Ferrari.

Kimi prevented an accident from happening (imo). You seem to think he almost caused one, to the point that Max was 'frightened' off the road - and on that basis he should keep the place.

You are making way too many assumptions about things I seem to be saying, but aren't. Maybe you should read my replies (there are multiple ones) more carefully and in the context of the entire post(s).

As an example: It takes two for a collision. In that sense, both did their part (mostly) in preventing that from happening. Kimi momentarily halted his action of turning into the apex, Max instinctively avoided Kimi by changing the trajectory of his car to be pointing beyond the track (which is where he ended). Because you seem to think that how someone ends up off the track is irrelevant, I raised the question if "intimidating" or even crowding someone to go off the track to be a valid and legitimate defensive move.

In other words, if I were the driver defending my position, would it be okay for me to "intimidate" a driver overtaking me on the inside of a corner by jinxing right so that he instinctively moves beyond the track. Either he then crashes due to loss of control or if he pulls off the impossible and does get ahead, the stewards then punish him for leaving the track and gaining "an advantage".

IMO both have some responsibility. A defending driver has the right to one defensive move, as long as he is not impeding anyone and the car he is defending against his not already along side. On the other hand, an attacking car attempting an overtake is free to "bomb dive" into a gap on corner entry as long as he has the grip levels to brake accordingly and make the corner. We've seen many overtakes take place this way. Most commonly, a defending driver can prevent this from happening by using his one-defensive-move to cover the inside (and thus force the driver attempting an overtake to go around the outside).

As is often the case with Kimi, he was found napping. He didn't expect Max to make a move there because he had no way of knowing how much more grip Max had in his car on his much fresher and softer tires. He took the normal racing line and left a huge inviting gap. Had he actually defended his position preemptively by leaving a smaller gap, Max couldn't have gone that way and would have been left with fewer options. Kimi didn't however and Max did go for that gap. The rest of the incident then unfolds in a rather logical succession: Kimi turns into the apex and realizes a little too late that Max is already there. He steers left and Max steers right. I don't believe that Kimi did this on purpose (not as a form of intimidation) but the result was the same in that Max consciously moved right which is why he ends up off track. Had he stayed his course, they either would have touched and collided or assuming Kimi could/would have left enough room, Max would have pulled off the overtake in a legal undisputed manner.

Again: Max did not leave the track because he needed to in order to complete the pass. He did so because he was avoiding a potential collision, having already been alongside Kimi when he started to turn into the apex. Being a steward on the case *I* would think hard about cause and effect and what action led to which result. And I'd also question how much the breach of the rules (in this case being momentarily off the track) contributed to the success of the overtake. I'd also question that if the predominant reason for Max going off track hadn't happened, if the overtake could have been successfully pulled off in a legal manner.

[santos]

Where on earth do you see a move to block in Kimi's driving? He took the normal racing line into the corner because he was operating under the assumption that Max wasn't going to, or able to, dive up the inside.

At the point where he sees Max has actually driven up the inside he jinks left and decelerates. Go and look at the multi-angle video and you can see him move left as Max hits the second apex, halfway alongside the Ferrari.

Kimi prevented an accident from happening (imo). You seem to think he almost caused one, to the point that Max was 'frightened' off the road - and on that basis he should keep the place.

You are making way too many assumptions about things I seem to be saying, but aren't. Maybe you should read my replies (there are multiple ones) more carefully and in the context of the entire post(s).

As an example: It takes two for a collision. In that sense, both did their part (mostly) in preventing that from happening. Kimi momentarily halted his action of turning into the apex, Max instinctively avoided Kimi by changing the trajectory of his car to be pointing beyond the track (which is where he ended). Because you seem to think that how someone ends up off the track is irrelevant, I raised the question if "intimidating" or even crowding someone to go off the track to be a valid and legitimate defensive move.

In other words, if I were the driver defending my position, would it be okay for me to "intimidate" a driver overtaking me on the inside of a corner by jinxing right so that he instinctively moves beyond the track. Either he then crashes due to loss of control or if he pulls off the impossible and does get ahead, the stewards then punish him for leaving the track and gaining "an advantage".

IMO both have some responsibility. A defending driver has the right to one defensive move, as long as he is not impeding anyone and the car he is defending against his not already along side. On the other hand, an attacking car attempting an overtake is free to "bomb dive" into a gap on corner entry as long as he has the grip levels to brake accordingly and make the corner. We've seen many overtakes take place this way. Most commonly, a defending driver can prevent this from happening by using his one-defensive-move to cover the inside (and thus force the driver attempting an overtake to go around the outside).

As is often the case with Kimi, he was found napping. He didn't expect Max to make a move there because he had no way of knowing how much more grip Max had in his car on his much fresher and softer tires. He took the normal racing line and left a huge inviting gap. Had he actually defended his position preemptively by leaving a smaller gap, Max couldn't have gone that way and would have been left with fewer options. Kimi didn't however and Max did go for that gap. The rest of the incident then unfolds in a rather logical succession: Kimi turns into the apex and realizes a little too late that Max is already there. He steers left and Max steers right. I don't believe that Kimi did this on purpose (not as a form of intimidation) but the result was the same in that Max consciously moved right which is why he ends up off track. Had he stayed his course, they either would have touched and collided or assuming Kimi could/would have left enough room, Max would have pulled off the overtake in a legal undisputed manner.

Again: Max did not leave the track because he needed to in order to complete the pass. He did so because he was avoiding a potential collision, having already been alongside Kimi when he started to turn into the apex. Being a steward on the case *I* would think hard about cause and effect and what action led to which result. And I'd also question how much the breach of the rules (in this case being momentarily off the track) contributed to the success of the overtake. I'd also question that if the predominant reason for Max going off track hadn't happened, if the overtake could have been successfully pulled off in a legal manner.

You're blaming Kimi??? What's next? Kimi should have a race ban, and Max should keep the third place?

[Fulcrum]

In other words, if I were the driver defending my position, would it be okay for me to "intimidate" a driver overtaking me on the inside of a corner by jinxing right so that he instinctively moves beyond the track. Either he then crashes due to loss of control or if he pulls off the impossible and does get ahead, the stewards then punish him for leaving the track and gaining "an advantage".

Maybe you should ask Max. Evidence from his F1 career thus far suggests it has become his modus operandi when defending. You're probably going to rationalise why its okay for Max to do this, because he's 'skilled enough'.

Otherwise, thanks for your extremely condescending response. I'd advise you to do likewise with respect to reading posts but, seeing as intent has largely escaped our conversation thus far, I don't see much value in interacting with you any further on this particular topic, as we're simply not going to agree.

Good day.

[sosic2121]

you seem to forget that i'm mentioning everybody getting 1 penalty, not 2. that would mean max gets 2, which still makes it unfair as then you must also give every driver a penalty for every infringement.

I agree with your point.

I believe going wide should be punished(gravel, grass,..., not penalty), and with that driving on the limit would be much more demanding.
IMO, better drivers(maybe Verstappen, maybe some other) would benefit from this.

[turbof1]

Look, if this trend continues where we are blatantly attacking eachother and the drivers, putting their skill and so forth in question, we will close the thread and hand out formal warnings.

So I am giving everybody one last chance to play nice. Criticism towards drivers is allowed, but it has to be structured and it has to make sense. And when replying, please stick the the quoted post's context. Don't see ghosts when there are none.

[F1NAC]

based on past similar situations (Vettel, germany 2012 - 20 sec penalty, ALonso - Silverstone 2010 DT) he can be happy that is only 5 second and not harsher.

[turbof1]

based on past similar situations (Vettel, germany 2012 - 20 sec penalty, ALonso - Silverstone 2010 DT) he can be happy that is only 5 second and not harsher.

Well, they introduced 5s penalties for these smaller cases. Back then they could not give smaller penalties.

[NathanOlder]

Nah, the FIA have been very soft on Ferrari this year, just to try and keep the fight going or to get a new winner.

Seb has had a lot of help but Lewis still wasted him in equal machinery

[George-Jung]

Seb has had a lot of help but Lewis still wasted him in equal machinery

But we can keep talking all we want-

Yes, by the rules the FIA was right.
The problem is as mentioned before the inconsistency...

So therefor it becomes a rule that only applies to some drivers.

[NathanOlder]

Max already angry about it in press conference. He still doesn't think he should get a penalty for it

[Manoah2u]

I believe going wide should be punished(gravel, grass,..., not penalty), and with that driving on the limit would be much more demanding.
IMO, better drivers(maybe Verstappen, maybe some other) would benefit from this.

That is hitting the nail on the head right there.

Either punish it, or don't. The most awkward about all of it is that the FIA was adamant they were gonna punish, they threatened with it all weekend yet did absolutely nothing. They didn't scratch qually times despite various drivers getting 'off track'.

Now on one side this is coherent with 'not being too castigating' that they intend to be more lenient. Fine, good. But then don't say in advance that you're gonna punish that thoroughly, and then don't do it.

Say you're gonna 'penalize' it, they had every darn right for it from start to finish from friday till sunday. Yet they did not act on it. Again, fine by me, as it was the same for all of them. Bottas, Kimi, Vettel, wasn't there also a Williams off, nobody got a single penalty not even a case of 'investigation'.

I agree fully with your comment that they had to be punished more as not punishing took away some skill and 'difficulty' by frankly not getting 'punished' naturally by going to fast in the corner. But then if there is no punishment, then keep it like that and don't all of a sudden in a single instance do punish.

that's essentially where the entire thing revolves around. And then more, atleast take the dignity to wait and penalize after the ceremony is done. On one side you might say 'it was unfair for kimi not to be on the podium then' but it's also unfair that max wasn't there despite finishing 3rd.

Sidenote though, i think it's also completely disgusting and out of place that supposed 'fans' now have been threatening FIA stewards with 'death' (wishes) for how they handled Max' infringement of the rules. There is no justification for any such thing. I also believe Max should be a bit more professional now and just let it be. Make your statement, but leave it in the past and don't look back. Unless i'm understanding the statements wrong, then ignore what i just said.

[sosic2121]

I believe going wide should be punished(gravel, grass,..., not penalty), and with that driving on the limit would be much more demanding.
IMO, better drivers(maybe Verstappen, maybe some other) would benefit from this.

That is hitting the nail on the head right there.

Either punish it, or don't. The most awkward about all of it is that the FIA was adamant they were gonna punish, they threatened with it all weekend yet did absolutely nothing. They didn't scratch qually times despite various drivers getting 'off track'.

Now on one side this is coherent with 'not being too castigating' that they intend to be more lenient. Fine, good. But then don't say in advance that you're gonna punish that thoroughly, and then don't do it.

Say you're gonna 'penalize' it, they had every darn right for it from start to finish from friday till sunday. Yet they did not act on it. Again, fine by me, as it was the same for all of them. Bottas, Kimi, Vettel, wasn't there also a Williams off, nobody got a single penalty not even a case of 'investigation'.

I agree fully with your comment that they had to be punished more as not punishing took away some skill and 'difficulty' by frankly not getting 'punished' naturally by going to fast in the corner. But then if there is no punishment, then keep it like that and don't all of a sudden in a single instance do punish.

that's essentially where the entire thing revolves around. And then more, atleast take the dignity to wait and penalize after the ceremony is done. On one side you might say 'it was unfair for kimi not to be on the podium then' but it's also unfair that max wasn't there despite finishing 3rd.

Sidenote though, i think it's also completely disgusting and out of place that supposed 'fans' now have been threatening FIA stewards with 'death' (wishes) for how they handled Max' infringement of the rules. There is no justification for any such thing. I also believe Max should be a bit more professional now and just let it be. Make your statement, but leave it in the past and don't look back. Unless i'm understanding the statements wrong, then ignore what i just said.

I think we understand each other now

Only thing is, I believe Max made illegal move, and if race went on, he would have to give that place back, and maybe overtake kimi next lap. But this was the last lap...