What if the breakaway happens?

[astracrazy]

BTW nobody get me wrong from the above posts. Im 100% behind FOTA, i just don't see another series happening. I think a compromise will be found before that. MM and BE can't be that stupid not to find one.

Im just coming up with things to discuss which may not have already been discussed (i.e TV revenue etc)

[gcdugas]

Be ready for a new twist Friday when the 2010 teams are announced. Expect Ferrari and a few of the FOTA teams to be named. It will be illegitimate of course as no one has removed their conditions but it will be the FIA/FOM's way of playing hardball claiming that certain teams have signed up through 2012. FOTA should ignore this and move ahead with their plans. Ferrari and others have said that they will fight on the grounds that Max is in breach and it will be bloody.

Personally I think the token entry strategy is the best way to discredit FOM-F1 and eliminate costly legal claims even if they are baseless. The teams have everything. All that the FIA and FOM have is bluster. Where the teams go, the fans will go.

And who knows the position FOM is in? What legal obligations do they have with TV networks, tracks, governments, promoters and sponsors. If FOTA runs a skeleton token race team at the races will FOM-F1 be in any breach?

It appears that Bernie should have hired Tony Soprano a year ago after Max won his "vote of confidence" in the sham FIA hearing.

[Conceptual]

Great to see gcdugas propping you kilcoo.\

I guess that makes your posts factual now.

I am done arguing, since no matter what is said, if it does not hold with your personal view of reality, it is wrong.

I'll just wait and see at this point. I have just as much absolute knowledge of the current contractual state and obligations as you do, but you seem to dismiss them more than I do.

So, we will have to wait and see.

[astracrazy]

If FOTA runs a skeleton token race team at the races will FOM-F1 be in any breach?.

Something to save additional testing and for the test drivers

[gcdugas]

I have re-read this interview with John Howett and now think that the budget cap or technical regs have nothing to do with the present row. He describes a "very mature Concorde agreement" that has been 6 months in the making. He also mentions a "reluctance to sign it". The more I read the more I am given to think that the teams want a major alteration to the revenue distribution, governing procedures and protocols and Bernie can't sign it because CVC, who have been completely silent, won't let him as it would cement a certain loss for them. The teams are prepared to walk. Max won't sign it because it neuters him and he very much enjoys there being no Concorde agreement right now.

Mosley and Bernie both underestimated FOTA's resolve. My hat is off to John Howett who we know tried to get the teams to walk out of the Monaco meeting with Max on Flav's boat because Max wouldn't budge. Hooray for Mr. Howett! A man with quiet stature, business sense and spunk.

P.S. I read nothing into the Renault letter to their supplier(s) about quitting F1. They were prepared to sign up through 2012 under the newer [financial] terms of a Concorde agreement just last week. There is no reason for them to use these tactics as a scare ploy against the FIA or FOM either as the threat of a breakaway is far greater to induce fear at the negotiating table. I suspect that they sent out a few differently worded letters to a few vendors to locate the source of a leak and probe loyalties. Whichever one surfaced was the source of the leak. This is just my suspicion but I can see no other purpose for it when days ago they were willing to sign up until 2012. Maybe there is still some haggling going on between the FOTA and FOM over the revenue split and Renault, in consultation with the rest of the FOTA teams and as a planned part of their negotiating script, made these little tremors to get Bernie's attention. But I am inclined to believe to first scenario as it appears that any progress on the Concorde agreement may be moot in view of an impending split. The teams no doubt will use large portions of the new Concorde agreement and its internal principles when they set up their rival series.

BTW the "Concorde Agreement" was named for the French Hotel where it was drafted during the FISA/FOCA war and has become a colloquial term for "governing document" in F1 parlance.

[gridwalker]

BTW the "Concorde Agreement" was named for the French Hotel where it was drafted during the FISA/FOCA war and has become a colloquial term for "governing document" in F1 parlance.

Never mind the dictionary definition of the word concorde, which is the french spelling for concord :

con⋅cord
 
–noun
1. agreement between persons, groups, nations, etc.; concurrence in attitudes, feelings, etc.; unanimity; accord: There was complete concord among the delegates.
2. agreement between things; mutual fitness; harmony.
3. Grammar. agreement (def. 6).
4. peace; amity.
5. a treaty; compact; covenant.
6. Music. a stable, harmonious combination of tones; a chord requiring no resolution.
Origin:
1250–1300; ME concorde < OF < L concordia, equiv. to concord- (s. of concors) harmonious (con- con- + cord-, s. of cors heart ) + -ia -ia

Which is very fitting, given the nature of the document.

(Sorry ... As a Bristolian, born & bred, the word "Concorde" has a special place in my heart, given that the famous supersonic airliner of that name was built in my home town)

[Belatti]

Hi, Im not reading any of these political/speculative threads, where members are bombing each others because of this and thats, but just wanted to make an opinion and thought this was the right thread to do it.

Carlos Ghosn declaration about who might be in control of F1 revenues: =D>

I hope a new series called Grand Prix will rise from these and that couple of Freaks vanish with time. The F1 name without Ferrari and the big names together will loose all of its value that after all Grand Prix Championship will buy the name anyways.

[gcdugas]

OK, Ghosen and Domenicali have broken silence. John Howett is likely the next voice to be heard. The war is still on and Max's statement yesterday that "the replies were not entirely negative" is just pure spin. In certain parts of the world we call these misleading statements... "lies".... kind of like those we heard in Australia earlier this year.

Domenicali in particular is preempting the FIA's entry list and let it be known that such use of the Ferrari name cannot be done without authorization. Ghosen's statement reveals my suspicion that this is as much about monetary distributions as it is about governance, caps and technical regs... in that order. His diplomatic and charitable use of the term "intermediaries" inject the notion that such can be dispensed with painlessly.

The teams aren't caving in one bit. The real pressure is on the FIA and FOM. I now think the terms from the teams to the FIA and FOM is "total capitulation" and "unconditional surrender" as delineated in the draft of the new Concorde agreement as it stands. No more negotiating.

Two days until liberation....

[CHT]

I believe FOTA has already crossed the point of no return in their negotiation with FIA and it it impossible for them to give in to FIA now because by doing so Max is going to take his revenge to split FOTA into pieces.

[hulmerist]

whatever happens with this i've still gained a massive amount of respect for the fota teams and what they're doing, i even kind of like ferrari now, as a die hard mclaren fan that's difficult for me to say, but i think it's great to see the teams banding together to fight against mosley

i'm sure they will all keep racing one way or another

i like this quote as well, mosley would do well taking heed of it

It is arguable in whose court the ball currently lies, but as it is the FIA President who proposes revolutionising the rules, Italy's La Stampa newspaper observes: "Mr Mosley risks passing into history as the man who destroyed Formula One."

[bjpower]

we consistently have crap like this in F1, maybe not to the same scale
BE has been giving silverstone grief for years now.
Canada going etc.
massive rule changes almost every year
no tire change
tire change
only one supplier
.....

there are always arguments and mainly massive ones.

F1 may be the pinnacle of motor sport.
but why is it other motor sports dont have all this crap?
Iv never heard anything like this from WRC

[Richard]

My bet is still on FOTA racing in FIA F1 next season. That's the only way both parties can maximise their revenue. It's just a question of who will blink first ....

[DaveKillens]

Concerning the recent threats and rants by Bernie, it's very predictable behavior. Basically, he's stating that if anyone breaks any contract with him, he will sue them. Sorry for the excitement, but this is just standard business practice.

Assuming that the FOTA teams do form a breakaway, people wonder if Bernie would be involved. I don't know the laws, but I'll assume that he can. If he can't, then all this speculation is a waste of server memory. True, Bernie has the capability to set up all the required services for a racing series. But teams know this, the tracks know this, even the TV people know this, that Bernie is the greediest middleman you can imagine. He sets up the series, then as the middleman gouges out as much personal revenue as possible. And he's not happy with just a few million, he wants a LOT. Teams have to pay to play in his sandbox. Tracks have to pay, drivers have to pay, basically anyone involved in Formula One funds Bernie's lifestyle.
So FOTA know this, and if they go with Bernie, they know full well that they are making a deal with the devil, and this devil will gouge every penny from them.
In this day and age, I believe it would not be impossible to find a TV broadcaster. Setanta anyone? ( I just threw that out just as an example) And within FOTA they have tremendous resources in setting up a series. How about Mateschitz and the people at Red Bull? Red Bull has an aggressive international marketing campaign. The numerous sponsored activities range from extreme sports like windsurfing, snowboarding, skateboarding, wakeboarding, cliff-diving, surfing, Formula 1 racing, and breakdancing to art shows, music, and video games. It also hosts events like the "Red Bull Flugtag" (German for "flight day" or "flying day") and other such contests. Red Bull is also sponsoring football teams, in Salzburg, Austria; New York, USA and Brazil and have included their company name in the club's names. And that's just one example of some of the potential within FOTA.
And to find or create an organization that sets the rules and polices them, piece of cake.

Bernie is just a middleman, and I cannot think of any other middlemen that gouge such a huge percentage of total revenue from the organizations they support. That's reason enough to avoid him.

[WhiteBlue]

Totally agree with you DK. The detail I would add is the principle that contracts must be respected. If the teams stop to sign Bernies contracts pretty soon they can do their own series. If they break his contracts (Red Bull, Toro Rosso, FIF1, Ferrari, Williams) they will have to have the money to compensate him. Knowing Bernie it will not be a small bill. It would be better to negotiate a settlement this time and break away clean in 2013. But the clock ticks and there is not much time now to sort this.

[outer_bongolia]

F1 may be the pinnacle of motor sport.
but why is it other motor sports dont have all this crap?
Iv never heard anything like this from WRC

The answer to your question is easy. The governance is trying to make it more entertaining a la Iron Chef, or Britain's Got Talent. To achieve this, they have been introducing and removing regulations without any major feedback from the people who are doing the actual engineering and racing. Just looking at the design changes forced by regulation changes since 1995 will tell the story why F1 has become such an expensive sport.

With the rope getting tighter around the teams' necks, both at financial and regulation-wise, the teams finally formed FOTA (kind of like a labor union) last summer to protect themselves and get more money from the revenues of F1. Both FIA and FOM have since been engaging FOTA in a major power struggle.

One very visible example was the "winner takes all" discussion for the '09 season. Both Ecclestone and Mosley wanted it, but had to take it back after a very strong response from FOTA. In return, they completely ignored FOTA's proposal for a points system that rewarded the winner more points.

FIA still wanted to keep control, and FOM wanted to keep the money. Since the costs were soaring and FOTA were asking for more money from the revenues, a budget cap and introduction of new teams sounded like a great idea. The budget cap could make the teams profitable again without FOM needing to give any money back to the teams. The new teams would dilute FOTA's strength in the decision making.

And we're here now. One more day and we may see the conclusion to another fight between the laborers (teams) and the managers.