Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Sonador]

It is a issue they have had since the start of the project, it is not the first time that they speak of this issue.
Only because there is a bunch of speculation about their future that the media makes a big story out of it.

What is slightly worrying is that they don't seem to know why that is.

[harjan]

It is a issue they have had since the start of the project, it is not the first time that they speak of this issue.
Only because there is a bunch of speculation about their future that the media makes a big story out of it.

What is slightly worrying is that they don't seem to know why that is.

Hasagewa himself says that they didn't have this issue in 2016..

And for the prior comment- he's not saying that the performance is good. He's just saying that the dyno isn't correlating on reliability. Reading it any different than that is plain wishful thinking.

[etusch]

Welp, not gonna say i'm surprised....

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... no-918068/

He speaks of reliability, right? The new engine gives good results but they are afraid of reliability problems

Unfortunately he didn't talk about good power. İf he talks about power without reliability, for me, it is a good result.
İn fact he didn't talk about reliability too. He talks about that their test results don't match with track. They see it is working and reliable on test but when it comes to track things what they found are not there both side of reliability and power.
Remember Mclaren said that they reach 95 percent test and track corelation. Before this year they also have not got it. I think they have to understood honda

[Tommy Cookers]

[quote=FW17]
They run higher rpm so that they can harvest more from the MGU H
If you read Wazari, there is a explanation to this [/quote]

is that running high rpm and lower boost to maintain the (optimal) mixture as at 10500 ?
or running high rpm maintaining the boost and so leaning the mixture to sub-optimal ?
or increasing backpressure ? (raising recovery but reducing ICE power)

how would any of these or any blend of them work ?

[FW17]

They run higher rpm so that they can harvest more from the MGU H
If you read Wazari, there is a explanation to this

is that running high rpm maintaining the (optimal) mixture as at 10500 by lowering the boost ?
or running high rpm maintaining the boost and so leaning the mixture to sub-optimal ?
or increasing the backpressure to maintain the boost and the optimal mixture (raising recovery but reducing ICE power) ?

how would any of these or any blend of them work ?

What is optimal? Maybe Honda calculated that 13000 rpm is optimal for them.

[Tommy Cookers]

so they run less lean than optimal at 10500 ? - or optimally lean at 10500 but use less than the 100 kg/hr permitted ?

[PlatinumZealot]

It is a issue they have had since the start of the project, it is not the first time that they speak of this issue.
Only because there is a bunch of speculation about their future that the media makes a big story out of it.

What is slightly worrying is that they don't seem to know why that is.

Any bets on vibration? Is pretty hard to simulate the specific type of vibration on the dyno. I suggest they put isolated accelerometers on the different parts of the engine and have some vibration rams on their dyno to simulate that. As far as I am aware most engine dynos simulate suspension vibrations and not necessarily engine and drivetrain vibrations?

[Zynerji]

Why aren't they running a pair of 2015 McLaren chassis with these development engines full time on track in Japan?

I mean, isn't there unlimited testing with 2 year old cars?

This isn't necessarily down force related, so the Pirelli mule car concept should be relative.

Why isn't this being done?

[Craigy]

I mean, isn't there unlimited testing with 2 year old cars?

No, (article 10.1 sporting regulations) and even if there were, the current honda wouldn't fit in the 2015 car.
Testing of Current Cars (TCC) is from the past two seasons, and is regulated.
Testing of Previous Cars (TPC) is from the three seasons preceding the previous one (so 2,3,4 years back) and is also regulated.
Testing of Historic Cars (THC) is from seasons before the TPC seasons, and is only allowed with cars built to the spec of that season - so no running a 2018/2019 engine in a 2011 car.

Basically, read section 10 of the sporting regulations, here http://www.fia.com/regulation/category/110

[Sonador]

It is a issue they have had since the start of the project, it is not the first time that they speak of this issue.
Only because there is a bunch of speculation about their future that the media makes a big story out of it.

What is slightly worrying is that they don't seem to know why that is.

Any bets on vibration? Is pretty hard to simulate the specific type of vibration on the dyno. I suggest they put isolated accelerometers on the different parts of the engine and have some vibration rams on their dyno to simulate that. As far as I am aware most engine dynos simulate suspension vibrations and not necessarily engine and drivetrain vibrations?

Could be, i do not know.

Things like running over kerbs and bumps, and G forces under braking and cornering are difficult to replicate i think.
Renault also had some dyno correlation isseus and they seemed to have resolved it.

Since 2015 you read little hints in intervieuws that Honda is seeing different things between dyno and track.
So that needs sorting out i think.

But i am only an F1 fan, not an expert.
So take anything i say with a pinch of salt.

[Zynerji]

I mean, isn't there unlimited testing with 2 year old cars?

No, (article 10.1 sporting regulations) and even if there were, the current honda wouldn't fit in the 2015 car.
Testing of Current Cars (TCC) is from the past two seasons, and is regulated.
Testing of Previous Cars (TPC) is from the three seasons preceding the previous one (so 2,3,4 years back) and is also regulated.
Testing of Historic Cars (THC) is from seasons before the TPC seasons, and is only allowed with cars built to the spec of that season - so no running a 2018/2019 engine in a 2011 car.

Basically, read section 10 of the sporting regulations, here http://www.fia.com/regulation/category/110

If Brawn could put a Merc engine in the 2009 Honda chassis, Honda could buy and run the never raced 2010 Toyota chassis and modify it from there.

Even buying a Manor chassis from auction would be better than doing nothing.

If Honda is missing one thing, it is some creative "outside the box" thinking.

[Wil992]

I mean, isn't there unlimited testing with 2 year old cars?

No, (article 10.1 sporting regulations) and even if there were, the current honda wouldn't fit in the 2015 car.
Testing of Current Cars (TCC) is from the past two seasons, and is regulated.
Testing of Previous Cars (TPC) is from the three seasons preceding the previous one (so 2,3,4 years back) and is also regulated.
Testing of Historic Cars (THC) is from seasons before the TPC seasons, and is only allowed with cars built to the spec of that season - so no running a 2018/2019 engine in a 2011 car.

Basically, read section 10 of the sporting regulations, here http://www.fia.com/regulation/category/110

If Brawn could put a Merc engine in the 2009 Honda chassis, Honda could buy and run the never raced 2010 Toyota chassis and modify it from there.

Even buying a Manor chassis from auction would be better than doing nothing.

If Honda is missing one thing, it is some creative "outside the box" thinking.

This is banned though, isn't it? They can run a 2010 car under the THC regs, but it would only be allowed if it had a 2010 spec engine.

[PlatinumZealot]

Not to mention they have half the budget of other engine manufacturers. That is a huge deficit to try anything off the beaten path.Ironically, their budget will greatly improve when they cut ties with McLaren.

[Sonador]

Maybe put the engine in a LMP1 like car?

[nzjrs]

Maybe put the engine in a LMP1 like car?

The use of mule cars, specially why they are not used, has been thoroughly discussed in this thread already.