General Honda F1 Topic

[Brenton]

Does knowledge of these pus become common knowledge to any extent or is it all 100% secret?
If all secret, then doesn't entering the sport later than rivals mean an enherent permanent disadvantage in development in being behind by x number of years?
How did Honda catch up despite having as much time today as Renault had for making their 2016 PU? Are Honda on bigger budget? Did some preliminary findings become common knowledge to all the manufacturers?

[Big Tea]

It nice everybody talks about HP with the upgrades but most likely that wasn't why Honda PU upgrade equal 0.3 sec at Canada.

Honda always had problems with ERS on long straits since day one.(in the past the energy deployment was done half way down the long strait.....they was sitting ducks to everybody and could never pass anybody on a strait)

Honda always was burning too much fuel so was always cutting ICE power more than others.

The improve performance came from fixing those two problems rather than adding 20 KW.

Probably meant they did not have to top the fuel right up to the brim too, so saved some weight.

[henry]

I am fascinated by these calculations. 12hp=0.15, 20hp=0.3, so 27hp is 0.5 then?

A 0.5 gain would be more like 30 to 33 kWh gain.

All teams have to do fuel saving with this current formula. It's a matter of how much fuel to carry with regards to fuel flow limit and deployment mapping/strategy.

*Also I misunderstood how many new spec PU's were brought to Canada, I thought it was two total instead of two per car.

That’s an interesting metric. I assume you really mean kWh, that is usable energy. 100 kg of fuel is around 1250 kWh of usable energy at 50% overall efficiency.

A 0.5 second gain per lap would reduce race time by around 0.06%. So rather less than 1 kg of fuel, around 8 kWh.

If the rest is down to efficiency improvement (which would yield more power) that would mean that a further 24 kWh was saved due to the improved efficiency. That’s about 2% improvement. If all that came from the ICE that’s a gain of around 10 kW (14hp). So the much touted 12 hp seems about the right ballpark.

The fuel weight saving would be around 2 to 3 kg. That obviously provides some of the 0.5 seconds.

[MMMMMMMM]

Let’s stop here and do a little recap. With the 40+ hp upgrade it got in Canada, Honda has now surpassed Renault and Ferrari and is about on par with Mercedes. Factor in further updates due in Hungary and we have on our hands the next championship winning power unit. All Toro Rosso / RBR have to do is provide a half decent chassis.

[techman]

the upgrade is very good. gasly was decent down the straight despite starting at the back , and he pace was quick too. shame they did not get the strategy right but overall , it looks decent. i just hope TR now bring a decent aero upgrade soon

[godlameroso]

It nice everybody talks about HP with the upgrades but most likely that wasn't why Honda PU upgrade equal 0.3 sec at Canada.

Honda always had problems with ERS on long straits since day one.(in the past the energy deployment was done half way down the long strait.....they was sitting ducks to everybody and could never pass anybody on a strait)

Honda always was burning too much fuel so was always cutting ICE power more than others.

The improve performance came from fixing those two problems rather than adding 20 KW.

Technically it's adding the 20kW they were losing on the straights because of not being efficient enough. The stamina of the ERS has improved.

[PlatinumZealot]

Horner said he's evaluating over two more races to decide. Clearly the two engine are about equal now with Renault slighlty ahead in intangibles.

[techman]

the hp gain in canada was very impressive considering the time harlty did was without the mods to the mguh and others. so 0.5 gain looks like they got a suprise here which they did not expected

[TakataDomeNSX]

It looks very good indeed, and RB know the truth, so I for one am definitely waiting to hear the positive news in Austria

[TakataDomeNSX]

It looks very good indeed, and RB know the truth, so I for one am definitely waiting to hear the positive news in Austria

[restless]

Horner said he's evaluating over two more races to decide. Clearly the two engine are about equal now with Renault slighlty ahead in intangibles.

Can you be more specific? Cooling or maybe driveability ?

[Bill]

The Honda pu is compact,lightweight,more driver ,requires less cooling,so what intangibles are on about

[hasika]

https://members.f1-life.net/report/70330/

The journalist said he had learn from Honda engineer that the upgrade didnt bring the rumored 30kw(40.8hp),but just a litte bit less than 20kw(27.2hp).

So I think it seems to be around 25hp.

[hasika]

https://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp/clm/mot ... ndex_2.php

The STR13 still have some problems in Montreal,lack the stability of the rear and no Traction hurt the car's performance.
They will have some update from the chassis side in France GP.

Tanabe：I cant say much for the performance of our new power unit now,i think still need 2-3 grand prix to say how our SPEC2 engine was compared to Renault,if we have overtake them or not,i think then i can talk something about the performance that time.Anyway,on par with Renault dont means much beause the gap to Mercedes and Ferrari is till here,so we still have a lot work to do.

[PlatinumZealot]

The Honda pu is compact,lightweight,more driver ,requires less cooling,so what intangibles are on about

Intangibles: Non-physical things around the engine package. Communication, support, response time, proven track-record, familiarity, flexibility to demands, golf game invites, marketability, similarity of parts should streamline work etc. Whatever you can think of that is not the physical engine or the cash around it (I count cash as tangible - it's physical you can see it, count it, smell it whatever). The intangibles will take time to evaluate thoroughly because there are positives and negatives between the two manufacturers. Obviously I'm not an insider, but I would put Renault slightly ahead just for now mainly for familiarity and the short time Honda has to rebuild their F1 reputation.