2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[Xero]

i Think he said it was not detuned at all... they are running normal, just not on max mode to do the laps.. just like everyone else.. so yes big problems, engine seems to be further away from Mercedes and Ferrari than it was in 2016... i mean they are almost 3 seconds off pace on ultras, against softs in the Ferrari.... its going to be a pain to watch this year

No, Eric said they are running it detuned. Not because anything is wrong with the engine, just because they don't want to risk stressing the engine too much at this point. They can't take any risks after the first two days. That was his explanation.

Correct. Just watched it back to double check.

[dren]

Mclaren will be competitive this year. It may take them a little longer, but I expect an odd podium or two at some point. I hope Renault is up there too, it could be real tight in the midfield.

[Andres125sx]

I usually follow this thread, but I think I´m going to keep away from it some time, at least while some people keep thinking any problem in winter testing means they didn´t do their job properly


This is racing, and racing does imply assuming risks, not only for the drivers, also for the engineers. Specially when someone is dominating so much you can´t chase them using traditional routes.

If those risks are worth or not can´t be evaluated before they solve the usual gremlins with any new concept and see what perfomance is bringing that risky route. But that will be only after solving the usual problems with any new concept, in this case first one was the oil tank, but you can be sure that will not be the only one

If anyone was expecting McHonda to perform problem free winter testing, IMHO there are two options, you were expecting McHonda to be conservative (aka giving up from fighting for titles or victories), or you were expecting McHonda to make a miracle. This is engineering, if you´re expecting a miracle you´re on the wrong forum and sport

[godlameroso]

I mentioned this in the engine thread, was there any word as to what caused Vandoorne's problem on the second day?

[Goran2812]

If anyone was expecting McHonda to perform problem free winter testing, IMHO there are two options, you were expecting McHonda to be conservative (aka giving up from fighting for titles or victories), or you were expecting McHonda to make a miracle. This is engineering, if you´re expecting a miracle you´re on the wrong forum and sport

In my humble opinion you got it a bit wrong...
No one (atleast I think so) should expect miracles, but steady progress.
Eventough Honda changed the engine from top to bottom, that does not justify the error in the design of the oil tank which basically destroyed 50% of test time for McLaren...

[proteus]

I mentioned this in the engine thread, was there any word as to what caused Vandoorne's problem on the second day?

They have shipped the engine back to Sakura, Hasegawa said they dont know jet what happend and what is the cause of power loss.

[GoranF1]

Sauber was ahead today.....is Mclaren slowest car for now?

[adrianjordan]

so Adrian, by how much do you think they are behind? 1 second? 2 seconds?

Since my name isn't Gary, I'm not going to try and make predictions based on Test Week 1 where noone is running their final spec and, I suspect even Mercedes and Ferrari, are running below their ultimate pace + different fuel levels, different test programs etc etc etc. Too many unknowns...

Come Melbourne then we can maybe, maybe, make predictions.

[Enstone]

Sauber was ahead today.....is Mclaren slowest car for now?

Unfortunatelly... yes, but the engine is on "safe" mode for the moment i guess... so let's see next week

[Andres125sx]

If anyone was expecting McHonda to perform problem free winter testing, IMHO there are two options, you were expecting McHonda to be conservative (aka giving up from fighting for titles or victories), or you were expecting McHonda to make a miracle. This is engineering, if you´re expecting a miracle you´re on the wrong forum and sport

In my humble opinion you got it a bit wrong...
No one (atleast I think so) should expect miracles, but steady progress.
Eventough Honda changed the engine from top to bottom, that does not justify the error in the design of the oil tank which basically destroyed 50% of test time for McLaren...

Any reason that error can´t be justified?

Even Mercedes said they had serious problems with that tank, so I´d say it´s not as easy as you´re trying to imply.

[Goran2812]

If anyone was expecting McHonda to perform problem free winter testing, IMHO there are two options, you were expecting McHonda to be conservative (aka giving up from fighting for titles or victories), or you were expecting McHonda to make a miracle. This is engineering, if you´re expecting a miracle you´re on the wrong forum and sport

In my humble opinion you got it a bit wrong...
No one (atleast I think so) should expect miracles, but steady progress.
Eventough Honda changed the engine from top to bottom, that does not justify the error in the design of the oil tank which basically destroyed 50% of test time for McLaren...

Any reason that error can´t be justified?

Even Mercedes said they had serious problems with that tank, so I´d say it´s not as easy as you´re trying to imply.

I agree that it wasn't, isnt' and probably won't be easy, but this is a critical component and it kinda seems they did not take every possible situation into account in the design process, or they did but judged it wrongly, I don't know... I do know it's virtually impossible to simulate exact conditions on a rig/dyno and it seems that high G's tend to make it not work properly but let's think of this situation from a different perspective... If you or me were in the bussiness of making F1 engines for a long time, would it cross our minds what kind of an impact high G's have on an engine? I'm not farmiliar with it, but arent there fluid dynamic simulations that can maybe predict what can happen? If we have computers that can predict weather, and if you ask me, that's a more unpredictable thing than a closed system as a formula 1 engine, than surelly there are ways of finding out and mending problems like this in some earlier stage... And Hasegawa confirmed that they allready found a solution... So that tells me it was something potentially easy and/or stupid and they just overlooked it... And the team lost 4 valuable days. It's going to be hard for them to make up time from this on the next test because:
a) they will get a brand new spec of engine, who knows, maybe honda messed up that one also
b) they will for sure take it easier for atleast the first day, and if everything is ok than means only 3 days of full on testing
c) I'm sure everyone at Honda and McLaren are ultra carefull and sensitive to just about everything and tensions sure must be high, that for sure affects everyone's morale
d) everyone is for sure having toughts in their head "what if the second test goes baddly? we're scr**** then..." and that probably affects them in work/preparation etc...
I maybe wrong about everything I just wrote, I'm not an engineer of that sort, my area is IT but let's be honest here, at this point in time, Honda is to blame and no excuses should be made for them. Even they said they were sorry for the problems they caused...

[foxmulder_ms]

Source??

Given the reliability problems, I would think it more likely that they're avoiding stressing the PU.

Ted's notebook. Eric told it himself.

That's incorrect. Eric said the engine wasn't detuned because of the oil tank issue, but it was to avoid any other possible reliability issues in order to allow them to complete their test program.

I doubt any of the teams are running the PUs at full tilt at this stage.

Okay, he said "it is not detuned, blah blah, it is detuned".

[Andres125sx]

In my humble opinion you got it a bit wrong...
No one (atleast I think so) should expect miracles, but steady progress.
Eventough Honda changed the engine from top to bottom, that does not justify the error in the design of the oil tank which basically destroyed 50% of test time for McLaren...

Any reason that error can´t be justified?

Even Mercedes said they had serious problems with that tank, so I´d say it´s not as easy as you´re trying to imply.

I agree that it wasn't, isnt' and probably won't be easy, but this is a critical component and it kinda seems they did not take every possible situation into account in the design process, or they did but judged it wrongly, I don't know... I do know it's virtually impossible to simulate exact conditions on a rig/dyno and it seems that high G's tend to make it not work properly but let's think of this situation from a different perspective... If you or me were in the bussiness of making F1 engines for a long time, would it cross our minds what kind of an impact high G's have on an engine? I'm not farmiliar with it, but arent there fluid dynamic simulations that can maybe predict what can happen?

The obvious reply is no, there are not. If there were, they would have simulated it, but there´s no way to simulate how a complete PU works under constant and changing (in direction) high G loads

And Hasegawa confirmed that they allready found a solution... So that tells me it was something potentially easy and/or stupid and they just overlooked it...

Or maybe the solution does imply some compromise in some other area, so since they can´t be sure about the real effects of high G loads on the PU they did decide to test it before assuming compromises

Or maybe they simply are so good in their job they quickly found a solution for an unpredictable problem

And the team lost 4 valuable days.

It was 2 days, not 4. And they didn´t loose anything, winter testing purpose is exactly this, finding unexpected problems, solve them, and prepare the car for the season

a) they will get a brand new spec of engine, who knows, maybe honda messed up that one also
b) they will for sure take it easier for atleast the first day, and if everything is ok than means only 3 days of full on testing
c) I'm sure everyone at Honda and McLaren are ultra carefull and sensitive to just about everything and tensions sure must be high, that for sure affects everyone's morale
d) everyone is for sure having toughts in their head "what if the second test goes baddly? we're scr**** then..." and that probably affects them in work/preparation etc...

a)Who knows, you said it. Do not play sheer
b) Testing is not PU testing, it´s everything wich must be tested, including aero, wich can be tested even with a detuned PU, at least at their early stages, wich is exactly where they all are right now
c) like any other racing team
d) like any other racing team assuming risky routes while trying to match their rivals


This is testing, judgements must be done once they´re trying to perform, not when they´re only testing the car and PU so none of us has a clue about their real perfomance. Imagine their car can´t finish a race each four, but the rest they´re fighting for victories.... would you say the same about them then?

Reliability problems were an obvious consequence of their poor perfomance past seasons, now they´re forced to assume risks, so don´t get too frustrated when they suffer reliability problems, at least while we don´t know their perfomance

[diffuser]

I usually follow this thread, but I think I´m going to keep away from it some time, at least while some people keep thinking any problem in winter testing means they didn´t do their job properly


This is racing, and racing does imply assuming risks, not only for the drivers, also for the engineers. Specially when someone is dominating so much you can´t chase them using traditional routes.

If those risks are worth or not can´t be evaluated before they solve the usual gremlins with any new concept and see what perfomance is bringing that risky route. But that will be only after solving the usual problems with any new concept, in this case first one was the oil tank, but you can be sure that will not be the only one

If anyone was expecting McHonda to perform problem free winter testing, IMHO there are two options, you were expecting McHonda to be conservative (aka giving up from fighting for titles or victories), or you were expecting McHonda to make a miracle. This is engineering, if you´re expecting a miracle you´re on the wrong forum and sport

I have....it's the silly season part 1

[diffuser]

Holy Rake Batman !!!!