2021 Turkish Grand Prix - Istanbul Park, Oct 08 - 10

[Tizz]

it is not looking bad for Mercedes. Now they have a new engine, they can put reliability concerns behind them.

I'm not so sure that they had time to fix the defect actually causing the problem. In that case they might end up needing another engine like Bottas 2 races in a row.

[PlatinumZealot]

I used dominant to describe Mercedes today because Zippy said this win reminded them of Mercedes dominance and saying that, how were they not dominant in this win? Bottas 12 seconds up the road from Max and Hamilton passing cars like he had DRS on. Max was at the bottom of the speed trap today. Leclerc at the top followed by Lewis. I can understand this was a bad setup, the surface affecting the RB car, but this is the 6/7th race where Mercedes have been better and only rain and bad strategy or mistakes have cost them valuable points

Don’t worry. It wasn’t your post I was responding to. If you classify today as dominant (and fair enough, that’s open to personal interpretation. I’m not sure I’d class either car as ‘dominant’ in any race this season but I’d certainly say ‘better than’ either way- you know what I’m saying. It’s just semantics) then you’ve got to say the Red Bull has also been dominant in races this season.

It’s really just the denial of that fact that some people constantly try to spin which is incredibly disingenuous.

Dominant doesn't apply to Red Bull not Mercedes this season. I don't think that's what Zippy meant anyway. But you can't deny Mercedes having a lot more pace this race, right? I would be worried if I was Red Bull/Verstappen.

As for that last part, just ignore it. I mean, you would have to be crazy to say Verstappen has been driving an inferior car every race this season. I know some will claim that, but then you know enough to not take anything that person says seriously...

Didn't see much pace differential at this track in this race under these conditions. I agree, it's really stretching it to ascribe dominance. I really think it would have gone either way, but Bottas just happened to pull an extremely inspired drive, whereas Max has been a bit uncomfortable with the setup that RB brought. There were times Max could close up and keep Bottas pressured, but Bottas was just too hungry today.

[PlatinumZealot]

it is not looking bad for Mercedes. Now they have a new engine, they can put reliability concerns behind them.

I'm not so sure that they had time to fix the defect actually causing the problem. In that case they might end up needing another engine like Bottas 2 races in a row.

This is Wolff playing his usual underdog card. He says it's a "batch problem with the materials." Then he says, "we figured it out now, we know what it is." Only Horner is he trying to lull into sense of safety.

Mercedes has never and doesn't disclose performance information about their engine. Even in the oil burning saga, and the "intake" issue they had at the beginning of the season. The 4th Bottas engine was also a mystery one. There are up to something, but whatever it is, the Mercedes cars have been beasts in Turkey! Even with that big fat rear wing! Gonna be fun to see what happens.

[grubschumi13]

Ah, I see we are back to the same old people trotting out the tired ‘dominant car’ cliche whenever the Mercedes is faster during a race weekend.

By that definition both cars have been ‘dominant’ at various points in the season, it’s just that conveniently it’s never applied the other way round by those so eager to try and push this narrative in a single direction.

I don’t think either car has been dominant all season. I think RBR were quicker- markedly in some races- until Silverstone (and actually had the closest thing to a ‘dominant’ car in Austria.) Since Silverstone Mercedes has been quicker but somewhat hampered/nullified by the weather and some poor strategy calls so not able to take advantage of it.

I used dominant to describe Mercedes today because Zippy said this win reminded them of Mercedes dominance and saying that, how were they not dominant in this win? Bottas 12 seconds up the road from Max and Hamilton passing cars like he had DRS on. Max was at the bottom of the speed trap today. Leclerc at the top followed by Lewis. I can understand this was a bad setup, the surface affecting the RB car, but this is the 6/7th race where Mercedes have been better and only rain and bad strategy or mistakes have cost them valuable points

It is a fact Mercedes is the faster car this season. Has always been. Last 3 races they have been so dominant and won 2 of 3 and it really should have been 3/3. COTA is also tipped to be a circuit they are expected to dominate once again.

[NathanOlder]

Ah, I see we are back to the same old people trotting out the tired ‘dominant car’ cliche whenever the Mercedes is faster during a race weekend.

By that definition both cars have been ‘dominant’ at various points in the season, it’s just that conveniently it’s never applied the other way round by those so eager to try and push this narrative in a single direction.

I don’t think either car has been dominant all season. I think RBR were quicker- markedly in some races- until Silverstone (and actually had the closest thing to a ‘dominant’ car in Austria.) Since Silverstone Mercedes has been quicker but somewhat hampered/nullified by the weather and some poor strategy calls so not able to take advantage of it.

I used dominant to describe Mercedes today because Zippy said this win reminded them of Mercedes dominance and saying that, how were they not dominant in this win? Bottas 12 seconds up the road from Max and Hamilton passing cars like he had DRS on. Max was at the bottom of the speed trap today. Leclerc at the top followed by Lewis. I can understand this was a bad setup, the surface affecting the RB car, but this is the 6/7th race where Mercedes have been better and only rain and bad strategy or mistakes have cost them valuable points

It is a fact Mercedes is the faster car this season. Has always been. Last 3 races they have been so dominant and won 2 of 3 and it really should have been 3/3. COTA is also tipped to be a circuit they are expected to dominate once again.

Has always been? you are honestly saying Mercedes have had the fastest car all season?

[Edax]

it is not looking bad for Mercedes. Now they have a new engine, they can put reliability concerns behind them.

I'm not so sure that they had time to fix the defect actually causing the problem. In that case they might end up needing another engine like Bottas 2 races in a row.

It wouldn’t surprise me. I have the suspicion since Silverstone that Merc is trading in longevity for power. They suddenly gained a lot of speed even in a high downforce config.

For the top teams an engine change isn’t such a big penalty. Losing a few points in one race, if that can win you a couple of others is not a bad deal. If they can prevent in race breakdowns and mishaps from starting midfield it might actually win them the championship.

[Manoah2u]

It's not all bad, but it's really not all good either.

Hindsight is always easy but taking that engine penalty for Lewis now has proved half-useless, if they would have not taken that penalty Hamilton would have easily won this GP, with Bottas easy 2nd, and Lewis would have had a guaranteed 12 point lead on Max, with Bottas making the fastest lap, surely Hamilton also would have and thus would have been a 13-point lead.

Though it made sense to a certain degree to take that engine penalty, it does come at the cost of having to pass RB teams at a race where they'll all try to finish in front due to both the Honda 'tribute' and to help Max get a title being a RBR driver in front.

Tsunoda held up pretty decent, and afterwards Lewis flew straight through the field, passed Gasly well, and then was controlling the pace. The fight with Perez was great.

Then it looked obvious at certain point that they could stay out - like Leclerc initially - and that would have been obviously better - as Hamilton himself noted too.
Why the team did not sufficiently concider that is beyond me. They either needed to bring him in before far more demanding, but then when waiting too long to concider staying out - it looks like they never thought off that, and the window was resulting in that pitting Lewis later on would result in him being behind even Gasly.

But the problem that persists is that Mercedes never concidered the scenario of keeping Lewis out. They mentioned he would lose a position anyway - which is obvious as Perez was too close to cover in a pitstop or overtake afterwards.

But that wasn't the point, the point is why pit him anyway? Pace was still good enough and he most certainly would have finished P3.
Pitting, especially with such few laps left was just bonkers.

Keeping him out would have made sense and worthwile taking the grid penalty. It would have been perfect damage control as it would only be 1 point that Max would lead the WDC.
Now they've thrown 5 points away for no reason.

If conditions would have been dryer I think Hamilton would have passed cars at the start and first laps quite easily and then tactics would have gotten him past Max and then Bottas would have gotten the call to move aside.

I think Lewis is going to have to make a firm hard statement as his team is letting him down the moment he needs them the most ever.

Not taking the engine would have had Hamilton win and be 13 points ahead.
Not taking the pitstop would have had Hamilton P3 and be 1 points behind.

Taking the penalty AND unneccesarily taking him in for a pitstop just mere laps before the finish despite his tires still being in no reason to replace, left him finish p5 and now with 6 points behind Max, which means he MUST finish P1 in the next GP to grab back the lead as there's no normal way Verstappen won't make the podium in COTA.

this is really really dumb of Mercedes.

[Edax]

It's not all bad, but it's really not all good either.

Hindsight is always easy but taking that engine penalty for Lewis now has proved half-useless, if they would have not taken that penalty Hamilton would have easily won this GP, with Bottas easy 2nd, and Lewis would have had a guaranteed 12 point lead on Max, with Bottas making the fastest lap, surely Hamilton also would have and thus would have been a 13-point lead.

Though it made sense to a certain degree to take that engine penalty, it does come at the cost of having to pass RB teams at a race where they'll all try to finish in front due to both the Honda 'tribute' and to help Max get a title being a RBR driver in front.

Tsunoda held up pretty decent, and afterwards Lewis flew straight through the field, passed Gasly well, and then was controlling the pace. The fight with Perez was great.

Then it looked obvious at certain point that they could stay out - like Leclerc initially - and that would have been obviously better - as Hamilton himself noted too.
Why the team did not sufficiently concider that is beyond me. They either needed to bring him in before far more demanding, but then when waiting too long to concider staying out - it looks like they never thought off that, and the window was resulting in that pitting Lewis later on would result in him being behind even Gasly.

But the problem that persists is that Mercedes never concidered the scenario of keeping Lewis out. They mentioned he would lose a position anyway - which is obvious as Perez was too close to cover in a pitstop or overtake afterwards.

But that wasn't the point, the point is why pit him anyway? Pace was still good enough and he most certainly would have finished P3.
Pitting, especially with such few laps left was just bonkers.

Keeping him out would have made sense and worthwile taking the grid penalty. It would have been perfect damage control as it would only be 1 point that Max would lead the WDC.
Now they've thrown 5 points away for no reason.

If conditions would have been dryer I think Hamilton would have passed cars at the start and first laps quite easily and then tactics would have gotten him past Max and then Bottas would have gotten the call to move aside.

I think Lewis is going to have to make a firm hard statement as his team is letting him down the moment he needs them the most ever.

Not taking the engine would have had Hamilton win and be 13 points ahead.
Not taking the pitstop would have had Hamilton P3 and be 1 points behind.

Taking the penalty AND unneccesarily taking him in for a pitstop just mere laps before the finish despite his tires still being in no reason to replace, left him finish p5 and now with 6 points behind Max, which means he MUST finish P1 in the next GP to grab back the lead as there's no normal way Verstappen won't make the podium in COTA.

this is really really dumb of Mercedes.

I don’t know. Looking at his rears I have a hard time seeing them take another 10 laps. In some places you could see the bonding layer coming trough. Yes Ocon made it, but he spend most of the time nursing his tires and not trashing them out in front. I think the team might have saved hamilton another China.

The bigger mistake was perhaps not taking him in earlier, so he could work through the graining to make real use of the tires.

[Sieper]

Ocon lost 45 seconds in those last 10 laps. Mercedes should have called Hamilton in earlier, but when they finally did he should have listened. Now he could be glad it was Gasly on his trail during the graining laps, were it Norris one spot up higher I believe he would have had a fight for P5.

[Edax]

Apparently Pirelli has asked the teams to replace the tires. They don’t think Hamilton would have made it.
www.gpblog.com/en/amp/96109/pirelli-on- ... de-it.html

Pirelli has requested all teams to make a pit stop and not finish the Grand Prix with one set of intermediates. The tyre supplier from Italy was afraid that safety would be compromised otherwise.

[El Scorchio]

I don’t know. Looking at his rears I have a hard time seeing them take another 10 laps. In some places you could see the bonding layer coming trough. Yes Ocon made it, but he spend most of the time nursing his tires and not trashing them out in front. I think the team might have saved hamilton another China.

The bigger mistake was perhaps not taking him in earlier, so he could work through the graining to make real use of the tires.

Exactly that. They should have gone like for like with Perez on strategy and backed Hamilton in the stronger car to get past him. Would have finished only fourth at worst. Instead they dithered and left him in no man’s land just like Ferrari did with Leclerc. Both lost places because of it.

[Viper2789]

I can't be the only one but today's race was quite disappointing....

On a dry track would it have been a better race?

[yelistener]

I think Lewis had a tiny lift in T8 which was not shown in app telemetry.

Interestingly enough, you can see them, briefly, lifting on 2009 QLF, but Massa and Vettel remain above 275km/h almost the entire time(the 275 bar briefly flashes out during the cornering) and that is a bit more speed than the current cars going flat out(I guess that´s due to more tyre scrubbing nowadays)



Curiously, the 2009 Mclaren had so poor downforce that Hamilton was going way slower, almost like a GP2 car. And, by 2010, they gained so much downforce with the EBD that Kobayashi and Webber blast through flatout without any difficulty

You can't read any specific speed numbers via that ancient 2009 speed bar. And I'm 100% sure 2009 cars can't even reach 275km/h on T8 entry let alone remaining that through the apex, because in 2011, with DRS RB only got to 275, and dropped to 264 after a shorter lift than 2009 Vettel. 2011 P4 Rosberg only got to 272 due to a worse T7 exit, dropping to 255. There's absolutely no way cars in that 2009 clips did better than 2011.

[yelistener]

I can't be the only one but today's race was quite disappointing....

On a dry track would it have been a better race?

Would've been a ton of more overtakes that's for sure. Last year there were barely any overtakes at the backstraight before DRS available, even the race director thought it was too boring so he activated DRS, and then lots of overtakes happened.

I couldn't help thinking that the rain benefitted not only Red Bull, but Bottas as well. Had it been a dry race, Lewis with DRS would've easily caught up to P2, and under that situation, Bottas would've been definitely "It's James"ed to let Lewis take the win.

[Hoffman900]

I think the problem was communication. From what was played on the live feed [don't know what else, if anything, was said that we didn't hear] it was made to sound like Hamilton wanted to go to the end on his original tyres, but then near the end got the call saying 'it's the last lap before the window to Gasly has gone'. I wouldn't be surprised if Hamilton thought Gasly was the car behind, because there was no reference to losing places to Perez and Leclerc, so it was safe to pit and get to the end on a new set without dropping a position. That's why I think he was so accepting of the pit stop at the end compared to before that point.

This is what I saw too.

If anyone has ever managed talented, but difficult employees (let’s be real, all these drivers would be difficult to manage), you need to make sure you give them the information they need to listen to you. Usually convincing them it’s their idea works best for the greater good of the operation in terms of getting a project (in this case, a race) and get them to realize their best potential.

Lewis should have pitted, but pit wall should have been either 1) more forceful 2) gave him the information needed to make him want to come in. Just laying over when Lewis snapped back is as much on pitwall as it is Lewis, and I don’t doubt Lewis would defer to pitwall if he felt more confident in their decision as heard by the “why?”. If I’m your manager and I don’t have an andwer as to why I’m asking you to do something, you’re going to struggle to listen to / respect / give me all your effort. Especially if it puts them in a worst spot after.

This was a managing failure on a person level more than anything.

Ferrari has been annoyingly bad at this as well (poor management in the race).