2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[SiLo]

If they really feel the Merc setup to squat to gain top speed, does Red Bull work late into the season to bring a upgrade to Saudi?
They sure discovered the advantage at Turkey, so 7 weeks to address it mechanical or areodynamicaly, sufficient?

The two cars work very differently. The RB is setup so that it always has nicely defined flow structures over as wide a speed window as possible. Using Mercedes approach would require all new bodywork suspension and new brake ducts. Mercedes relies more on the brake ducts for their diffuser performance than RBR.

https://files.catbox.moe/zfwk1i.jpg

Here you can see a side by side amateur cfd study of the 2019 cars. RBR on the left, Merc on the right. Not totally accurate but I'd say enough to get the gist of the two different aero philosophies.

Are there any more CFD pictures from this?

[Just_a_fan]

If they really feel the Merc setup to squat to gain top speed, does Red Bull work late into the season to bring a upgrade to Saudi?
They sure discovered the advantage at Turkey, so 7 weeks to address it mechanical or areodynamicaly, sufficient?

The two cars work very differently. The RB is setup so that it always has nicely defined flow structures over as wide a speed window as possible. Using Mercedes approach would require all new bodywork suspension and new brake ducts. Mercedes relies more on the brake ducts for their diffuser performance than RBR.

https://files.catbox.moe/zfwk1i.jpg

Here you can see a side by side amateur cfd study of the 2019 cars. RBR on the left, Merc on the right. Not totally accurate but I'd say enough to get the gist of the two different aero philosophies.

But that misses the changes to the rear floor and brake ducts - the key performance differentiator this season - so it's not even slightly accurate. Red Bull's high rake approach means they still get the benefit of the rear brake duct appendages where Mercedes don't. That's why Mercedes appear to have been trying to run the rear higher as the season has progressed as it's the only way to get the performance back.

[godlameroso]

If they really feel the Merc setup to squat to gain top speed, does Red Bull work late into the season to bring a upgrade to Saudi?
They sure discovered the advantage at Turkey, so 7 weeks to address it mechanical or areodynamicaly, sufficient?

The two cars work very differently. The RB is setup so that it always has nicely defined flow structures over as wide a speed window as possible. Using Mercedes approach would require all new bodywork suspension and new brake ducts. Mercedes relies more on the brake ducts for their diffuser performance than RBR.

https://files.catbox.moe/zfwk1i.jpg

Here you can see a side by side amateur cfd study of the 2019 cars. RBR on the left, Merc on the right. Not totally accurate but I'd say enough to get the gist of the two different aero philosophies.

But that misses the changes to the rear floor and brake ducts - the key performance differentiator this season - so it's not even slightly accurate. Red Bull's high rake approach means they still get the benefit of the rear brake duct appendages where Mercedes don't. That's why Mercedes appear to have been trying to run the rear higher as the season has progressed as it's the only way to get the performance back.

Interesting point. I was actually thinking about this. In Baku, Mercedes made a step forward over the weekend when they managed to run the nose closer to the ground. The low speed rake may be an attempt to get the front wing working at a lower speed range.(possibly where the regulation changes have affected them the most)

The advantage Mercedes seems to have is on mid speed corner exit, while the RBR is better on entry and carrying speed through slow mid speed corners.

Portimao was the first hit of this because almost every corner is rear traction limited on exit, and Hamilton breezed past Verstappen because the Merc had better pull out of the final corner.

Barcelona was the next confirmation as Mercedes better exit traction helped them preserve their rear tires better than RB.

In Hungary Hamilton was untouchable in the final 2 corners because of his exit speed.

Turkey was more of the same, Bottas was just faster on the traction zones and this manifested itself as better tire wear.

COTA having more Bahrain like corners was always going to suit RBR. Considering Verstappen had a .4 advantage there, and the gap at COTA was .2 Mercedes has indeed halfed the gap to RBR.

Looking at the characteristics of the remaining tracks, it can really go either way.

[Dee]

The two cars work very differently. The RB is setup so that it always has nicely defined flow structures over as wide a speed window as possible. Using Mercedes approach would require all new bodywork suspension and new brake ducts. Mercedes relies more on the brake ducts for their diffuser performance than RBR.

https://files.catbox.moe/zfwk1i.jpg

Here you can see a side by side amateur cfd study of the 2019 cars. RBR on the left, Merc on the right. Not totally accurate but I'd say enough to get the gist of the two different aero philosophies.

But that misses the changes to the rear floor and brake ducts - the key performance differentiator this season - so it's not even slightly accurate. Red Bull's high rake approach means they still get the benefit of the rear brake duct appendages where Mercedes don't. That's why Mercedes appear to have been trying to run the rear higher as the season has progressed as it's the only way to get the performance back.

Interesting point. I was actually thinking about this. In Baku, Mercedes made a step forward over the weekend when they managed to run the nose closer to the ground. The low speed rake may be an attempt to get the front wing working at a lower speed range.(possibly where the regulation changes have affected them the most)

The advantage Mercedes seems to have is on mid speed corner exit, while the RBR is better on entry and carrying speed through slow mid speed corners.

Portimao was the first hit of this because almost every corner is rear traction limited on exit, and Hamilton breezed past Verstappen because the Merc had better pull out of the final corner.

Barcelona was the next confirmation as Mercedes better exit traction helped them preserve their rear tires better than RB.

In Hungary Hamilton was untouchable in the final 2 corners because of his exit speed.

Turkey was more of the same, Bottas was just faster on the traction zones and this manifested itself as better tire wear.

COTA having more Bahrain like corners was always going to suit RBR. Considering Verstappen had a .4 advantage there, and the gap at COTA was .2 Mercedes has indeed halfed the gap to RBR.

Looking at the characteristics of the remaining tracks, it can really go either way.

How do you see each coming circuit at the moment?

Button was saying you need traction to do well in Mexico and Brazil and said RB was better than Mercedes in this area which seems to go against what you have said. I like your posts and know that you know your stuff, just maybe explain this difference

And Hamilton made a mistake in Bahrain which cost him 0.3 so gap in Bahrain would have been around 0.1

[godlameroso]

In Mexico I'd imagine McLaren takes sector 1, RBR takes sector 2, and Mercedes takes sector 3. The McLaren's greatest strength is under braking, and the exit of chicanes plays into its strengths. Monza highlighted this. Sector 2 is all about carrying speed, that's where the RBR excels at, sector 3 is all about corner exit grip.

We also can't count out Ferrari because with the improved ERS and lower drag at altitude they can exploit their chassis, which I feel is underrated. It's a short circuit the vast majority of the corners are in the lower speed range. The esses in sector 2 are high speed, but have little to do with traction and more to do with efficient downforce and driver skill.

The only corner I dislike on this track is turn 5, the others are fine, this is a formula E track as well so overtaking will be difficult regardless, and with the convergence of performance even more so. Again I feel Pirelli went too conservative on tire choice this round, but it is what it is, and we can't change it now. There will also be a nice performance bump using the soft over the other tires so who knows.

Because overtaking is so difficult everyone will try the easy one stop, however it may prove tricky if they can't get the hard tire working. It will be partly cloudy nice room temperature weather.

Any driver prone to altitude sickness will want to get to Mexico City early, this week has flown by.

[godlameroso]

But that misses the changes to the rear floor and brake ducts - the key performance differentiator this season - so it's not even slightly accurate. Red Bull's high rake approach means they still get the benefit of the rear brake duct appendages where Mercedes don't. That's why Mercedes appear to have been trying to run the rear higher as the season has progressed as it's the only way to get the performance back.

Interesting point. I was actually thinking about this. In Baku, Mercedes made a step forward over the weekend when they managed to run the nose closer to the ground. The low speed rake may be an attempt to get the front wing working at a lower speed range.(possibly where the regulation changes have affected them the most)

The advantage Mercedes seems to have is on mid speed corner exit, while the RBR is better on entry and carrying speed through slow mid speed corners.

Portimao was the first hit of this because almost every corner is rear traction limited on exit, and Hamilton breezed past Verstappen because the Merc had better pull out of the final corner.

Barcelona was the next confirmation as Mercedes better exit traction helped them preserve their rear tires better than RB.

In Hungary Hamilton was untouchable in the final 2 corners because of his exit speed.

Turkey was more of the same, Bottas was just faster on the traction zones and this manifested itself as better tire wear.

COTA having more Bahrain like corners was always going to suit RBR. Considering Verstappen had a .4 advantage there, and the gap at COTA was .2 Mercedes has indeed halfed the gap to RBR.

Looking at the characteristics of the remaining tracks, it can really go either way.

How do you see each coming circuit at the moment?

Button was saying you need traction to do well in Mexico and Brazil and said RB was better than Mercedes in this area which seems to go against what you have said. I like your posts and know that you know your stuff, just maybe explain this difference

And Hamilton made a mistake in Bahrain which cost him 0.3 so gap in Bahrain would have been around 0.1

It's right there for you to see. Look where Verstappen gains and loses.

Verstappen carries more speed 3-7, and I feel Hamilton stuffed turn 1 a bit vs Verstappen, but it evened out because Verstappen kind of botched 11.

You can see Hamilton gains in turn 9 which is a very tricky traction exit. Again after the end of the back straight(12), Hamilton has better traction on the exit, Verstappen has better entries on 13 and 16 but Hamilton has better traction out of 16. Verstappen carries a bit more speed on the final 2 corners.

Also very telling was the exit of turn 13 turn 14 entry, there is a huge bump, that cost Hamilton. That Mercedes doesn't like bumps.

[Wouter]

Nice interview with Max.

https://www.thegentlemansjournal.com/ar ... ns-journa/

[Dee]

Interesting point. I was actually thinking about this. In Baku, Mercedes made a step forward over the weekend when they managed to run the nose closer to the ground. The low speed rake may be an attempt to get the front wing working at a lower speed range.(possibly where the regulation changes have affected them the most)

The advantage Mercedes seems to have is on mid speed corner exit, while the RBR is better on entry and carrying speed through slow mid speed corners.

Portimao was the first hit of this because almost every corner is rear traction limited on exit, and Hamilton breezed past Verstappen because the Merc had better pull out of the final corner.

Barcelona was the next confirmation as Mercedes better exit traction helped them preserve their rear tires better than RB.

In Hungary Hamilton was untouchable in the final 2 corners because of his exit speed.

Turkey was more of the same, Bottas was just faster on the traction zones and this manifested itself as better tire wear.

COTA having more Bahrain like corners was always going to suit RBR. Considering Verstappen had a .4 advantage there, and the gap at COTA was .2 Mercedes has indeed halfed the gap to RBR.

Looking at the characteristics of the remaining tracks, it can really go either way.

How do you see each coming circuit at the moment?

Button was saying you need traction to do well in Mexico and Brazil and said RB was better than Mercedes in this area which seems to go against what you have said. I like your posts and know that you know your stuff, just maybe explain this difference

And Hamilton made a mistake in Bahrain which cost him 0.3 so gap in Bahrain would have been around 0.1

It's right there for you to see. Look where Verstappen gains and loses.

Verstappen carries more speed 3-7, and I feel Hamilton stuffed turn 1 a bit vs Verstappen, but it evened out because Verstappen kind of botched 11.

You can see Hamilton gains in turn 9 which is a very tricky traction exit. Again after the end of the back straight(12), Hamilton has better traction on the exit, Verstappen has better entries on 13 and 16 but Hamilton has better traction out of 16. Verstappen carries a bit more speed on the final 2 corners.

Also very telling was the exit of turn 13 turn 14 entry, there is a huge bump, that cost Hamilton. That Mercedes doesn't like bumps.

So if Button says Mexico is a traction circuit and Mercedes have the upper hand in that area, do you think they will win there or at least have an advantage over RB ?Ride height should not be a problem there, only thing that may hamper them is the altitude..

[godlameroso]

How do you see each coming circuit at the moment?

Button was saying you need traction to do well in Mexico and Brazil and said RB was better than Mercedes in this area which seems to go against what you have said. I like your posts and know that you know your stuff, just maybe explain this difference

And Hamilton made a mistake in Bahrain which cost him 0.3 so gap in Bahrain would have been around 0.1

It's right there for you to see. Look where Verstappen gains and loses.

Verstappen carries more speed 3-7, and I feel Hamilton stuffed turn 1 a bit vs Verstappen, but it evened out because Verstappen kind of botched 11.

You can see Hamilton gains in turn 9 which is a very tricky traction exit. Again after the end of the back straight(12), Hamilton has better traction on the exit, Verstappen has better entries on 13 and 16 but Hamilton has better traction out of 16. Verstappen carries a bit more speed on the final 2 corners.

Also very telling was the exit of turn 13 turn 14 entry, there is a huge bump, that cost Hamilton. That Mercedes doesn't like bumps.

So if Button says Mexico is a traction circuit and Mercedes have the upper hand in that area, do you think they will win there or at least have an advantage over RB ?Ride height should not be a problem there, only thing that may hamper them is the altitude..

Advantage maybe in some places, but RB still has its own advantage, so it's matter of details, I think it's incredibly close and whoever does a better job preparing will likely have the advantage. There's no room for innovation at this stage it's just honing what you have.

[Dee]

It's right there for you to see. Look where Verstappen gains and loses.

Verstappen carries more speed 3-7, and I feel Hamilton stuffed turn 1 a bit vs Verstappen, but it evened out because Verstappen kind of botched 11.

You can see Hamilton gains in turn 9 which is a very tricky traction exit. Again after the end of the back straight(12), Hamilton has better traction on the exit, Verstappen has better entries on 13 and 16 but Hamilton has better traction out of 16. Verstappen carries a bit more speed on the final 2 corners.

Also very telling was the exit of turn 13 turn 14 entry, there is a huge bump, that cost Hamilton. That Mercedes doesn't like bumps.

So if Button says Mexico is a traction circuit and Mercedes have the upper hand in that area, do you think they will win there or at least have an advantage over RB ?Ride height should not be a problem there, only thing that may hamper them is the altitude..

Advantage maybe in some places, but RB still has its own advantage, so it's matter of details, I think it's incredibly close and whoever does a better job preparing will likely have the advantage. There's no room for innovation at this stage it's just honing what you have.

Eek! This season is mad, in the best way possible!

[godlameroso]

Also I'm plagiarizing Verstappen, because he was the one who said it's coming down to preparing the little details and maximizing what they have(I'm paraphrasing).

[Spacepace]

Interesting point. I was actually thinking about this. In Baku, Mercedes made a step forward over the weekend when they managed to run the nose closer to the ground. The low speed rake may be an attempt to get the front wing working at a lower speed range.(possibly where the regulation changes have affected them the most)

The advantage Mercedes seems to have is on mid speed corner exit, while the RBR is better on entry and carrying speed through slow mid speed corners.

Portimao was the first hit of this because almost every corner is rear traction limited on exit, and Hamilton breezed past Verstappen because the Merc had better pull out of the final corner.

Barcelona was the next confirmation as Mercedes better exit traction helped them preserve their rear tires better than RB.

In Hungary Hamilton was untouchable in the final 2 corners because of his exit speed.

Turkey was more of the same, Bottas was just faster on the traction zones and this manifested itself as better tire wear.

COTA having more Bahrain like corners was always going to suit RBR. Considering Verstappen had a .4 advantage there, and the gap at COTA was .2 Mercedes has indeed halfed the gap to RBR.

Looking at the characteristics of the remaining tracks, it can really go either way.

How do you see each coming circuit at the moment?

Button was saying you need traction to do well in Mexico and Brazil and said RB was better than Mercedes in this area which seems to go against what you have said. I like your posts and know that you know your stuff, just maybe explain this difference

And Hamilton made a mistake in Bahrain which cost him 0.3 so gap in Bahrain would have been around 0.1

It's right there for you to see. Look where Verstappen gains and loses.

Verstappen carries more speed 3-7, and I feel Hamilton stuffed turn 1 a bit vs Verstappen, but it evened out because Verstappen kind of botched 11.

You can see Hamilton gains in turn 9 which is a very tricky traction exit. Again after the end of the back straight(12), Hamilton has better traction on the exit, Verstappen has better entries on 13 and 16 but Hamilton has better traction out of 16. Verstappen carries a bit more speed on the final 2 corners.

Also very telling was the exit of turn 13 turn 14 entry, there is a huge bump, that cost Hamilton. That Mercedes doesn't like bumps.

How can the W12 be better on traction when on all rear limited tracks RB16B were stronger and front limited Mercedes were stronger? As far as I see it the W12 is just stronger on braking and stability. RB16B is able to get the rears up to temp much faster too as seen with there slow out laps in qualy. Adrian Newey cars have always had inherently good traction built into them

[godlameroso]

How do you see each coming circuit at the moment?

Button was saying you need traction to do well in Mexico and Brazil and said RB was better than Mercedes in this area which seems to go against what you have said. I like your posts and know that you know your stuff, just maybe explain this difference

And Hamilton made a mistake in Bahrain which cost him 0.3 so gap in Bahrain would have been around 0.1

It's right there for you to see. Look where Verstappen gains and loses.

Verstappen carries more speed 3-7, and I feel Hamilton stuffed turn 1 a bit vs Verstappen, but it evened out because Verstappen kind of botched 11.

You can see Hamilton gains in turn 9 which is a very tricky traction exit. Again after the end of the back straight(12), Hamilton has better traction on the exit, Verstappen has better entries on 13 and 16 but Hamilton has better traction out of 16. Verstappen carries a bit more speed on the final 2 corners.

Also very telling was the exit of turn 13 turn 14 entry, there is a huge bump, that cost Hamilton. That Mercedes doesn't like bumps.

How can the W12 be better on traction when on all rear limited tracks RB16B were stronger and front limited Mercedes were stronger? As far as I see it the W12 is just stronger on braking and stability. RB16B is able to get the rears up to temp much faster too as seen with there slow out laps in qualy. Adrian Newey cars have always had inherently good traction built into them

Barcelona is not front limited, Portimao is not front limited, Hungary is not front limited, Istanbul is not front limited, it's more important to have grip on exit in all those circuits.

Bahrain turn 10, Cota turn 16, 13, 1, and final two corners, all of sector 1, that's front limited, and Verstappen had a clear advantage in all those corners.

Silverstone requires good exit traction to get the lap time because some of the fast bits aren't even corners to F1 cars.

During pre-season testing Hamilton spun the car on entry not exit. When Verstappen spun in 2020 it was in the low speed corners, and that's where the car was having issues.

[Spacepace]

It's right there for you to see. Look where Verstappen gains and loses.

Verstappen carries more speed 3-7, and I feel Hamilton stuffed turn 1 a bit vs Verstappen, but it evened out because Verstappen kind of botched 11.

You can see Hamilton gains in turn 9 which is a very tricky traction exit. Again after the end of the back straight(12), Hamilton has better traction on the exit, Verstappen has better entries on 13 and 16 but Hamilton has better traction out of 16. Verstappen carries a bit more speed on the final 2 corners.

Also very telling was the exit of turn 13 turn 14 entry, there is a huge bump, that cost Hamilton. That Mercedes doesn't like bumps.

How can the W12 be better on traction when on all rear limited tracks RB16B were stronger and front limited Mercedes were stronger? As far as I see it the W12 is just stronger on braking and stability. RB16B is able to get the rears up to temp much faster too as seen with there slow out laps in qualy. Adrian Newey cars have always had inherently good traction built into them

Barcelona is not front limited, Portimao is not front limited, Hungary is not front limited, Istanbul is not front limited, it's more important to have grip on exit in all those circuits.

Bahrain turn 10, Cota turn 16, 13, 1, and final two corners, all of sector 1, that's front limited, and Verstappen had a clear advantage in all those corners.

Silverstone requires good exit traction to get the lap time because some of the fast bits aren't even corners to F1 cars.

During pre-season testing Hamilton spun the car on entry not exit. When Verstappen spun in 2020 it was in the low speed corners, and that's where the car was having issues.

Barcelona turn 1,3,4,6,7,8,12 are all front limited. COTA is slightly front limited but to say Silverstone and Turkey are rear limited??? Those places eat front tyres

I'm not commenting to change your mind but to not let the forum become skewed.

[Sieper]

Also I'm plagiarizing Verstappen, because he was the one who said it's coming down to preparing the little details and maximizing what they have(I'm paraphrasing).

Indeed. Very naughty of you.