2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[zibby43]

Smedley - the same guy who's behind AWS tyre graphic. Case closed I think.

What’s that have to do with anything? I mean, Smedley didn’t invent AWS lol.

He’s merely using the AWS suite of products and trying to adopt a variety of F1-relevant data points for the broadcast (and the braking graphic, among others have always been quite good, no?).

It just seems like a silly and irrelevant attempt to discredit someone with more relevant F1 experience than everyone in this thread has combined.

On a side note, has there been a single F1 journalist, engineer, team personnel member, etc. that hasn’t said RB have had the best car on the balance of the season?

If so, please post the link and I’ll stand corrected.

Hahaha mate, AWS only sponsors this stupid tyre graphic crap, whereas data compilation and interpretation is solely down to FOM, and Smedley is the main guy behind it, just go look for some articles online how he praises that flawed system.

Some other graphics are cool, mainly those that do not rely on any interpretation of data (corner speed and time spent on brakes and throttle analysis comes to mind), but those can hardly be argued with.

I'd also agree with previous posters that blank statements such as "red bull didnt capitalise" and "red bull has the best car for entire season", while simultaneously ingoring all other factors (also already mentioned some posts back) are extremely one sided and silly views, completely contrary to what's been observed on track.

That’s not my understanding regarding AWS. Their cloud infrastructure, computing, and machine learning services have become a big component of what F1 is doing. Even when it comes to the development of the 2022 car.

“By using AWS high performance computing, F1 was able to run aerodynamic simulations to develop its next generation car 70% faster than ever before, creating a car that reduces downforce loss from 50% to 15%.”

Not just a sponsor. Who said for the entire season? “Balance” and “entire” are completely different.

Didn’t the initial quote point out the swings toward Merc’s way?

In any event, I’m of the opinion that RBR built the better car this year, and they’ve had a driver that has used supreme talent to extract every drop out of it. And the talent discrepancy is clear when seeing what Sergio is doing with the car.

I don’t know what so controversial about that.

[Sieper]

I didn’t know Smedley was the one behind those AWS stats. They almost always “predict” Lewis to be the best. After the FPs. Now I know why.

[zibby43]

I didn’t know Smedley was the one behind those AWS stats. They almost always “predict” Lewis to be the best. After the FPs. Now I know why.

You just said, in your opinion, Merc was the faster car.

Two Mercedes drivers have taken fastest laps. Bottas was almost always close. The Mercedes is still the fastest imho and even if you don’t agree clearly it can never be the other extreme, that the RB is dominant. No matter how you want to manipulate data.

But yet, it’s also your opinion that Smedley is manipulating the data to merely make it look like Merc is projected to be fastest.

Am I understanding that correctly?

[Kingshark]

Rob Smedley thinks Red Bull have the best car. Gary Anderson thinks Mercedes have the best car.

For all this talk about how we are supposed to “believe the experts”, the experts contract each other all the time.

I prefer to make up my own mind, with the data I have available.

[ringo]

Yes very sure. That video doesnt do the car justice in race trim. Also.. Max is an early braker and depends on the cornering speed of the car to get through the corners. That video is just highlighting the prowess of the redbull mid corner and exit.
Look on race highlights and look on the braking points and also a good comparison is hamilton vs perez in turkey. Its the brakes on the redbull that allow Perez to defend so well.
I think the traction is not debatable. The redbull has the strongest rear end traditionally and also because of the regulations.

Maybe Max brakes early because the car can't brake late. Hamilton clearly accellerated better out of the last corner in Turkey as we saw in the race. Everybody can brake late once to defend inside line, easy. Red Bull has always had a better front end than rear end in previous years, they just fixed their weakest point this year by making the gearbox case slimmer. Its very much debatable because its the other way around from what you state.

Strongly disagree. Redbull has always had good traction and great braking. For years. This is nothing new. It's why Daniel Ricardo seemed to be so good on the brakes and could not replicate that at renault or mclaren. Likewise with vettel and his spins at ferrari if we look at the rear end. Relatively the RB cars have done everything well apart from the engine.

[ringo]

Rob Smedley thinks Red Bull have the best car. Gary Anderson thinks Mercedes have the best car.

For all this talk about how we are supposed to “believe the experts”, the experts contract each other all the time.

I prefer to make up my own mind, with the data I have available.

Smedley has access to quantifiable data. Gary Anderson just uses his imagination.

[ringo]

And Smedley was talking about the car being the best. Which it has been for much of the season.
Have points been dropped? Yes, because no team is perfect. Could Max and the team have done things better and had more points now? Yes. Likewise Mercedes and Hamilton. And every other team and driver on the grid. That's not bias, it's life. Humans aren't perfect.

.
And just to add something about this statement by Smedley.
"If I had to choose a car, I would choose the Red Bull. I think it's just the better car and it has been all season."

Based on what?

Imola, Portugal, Spain, France, Hungary, Monza, Russia, Turkey and America, Mercedes was convincingly faster.

Red Bull was only convincingly faster in Austria. Even at a race like Zandvoort where Max won, the data shows that Mercedes was faster.

The only races Max really won by force majeure were Monaco (after a very bad weekend at Mercedes) and Austria.

But if Hamilton loses, it must of course be the car. It doesn't matter how many strategic blunders Mercedes makes, or how often Hamilton himself makes a mistake. He is behind in the championship so the car is not that good.

“It has been a better car all season" is absolute nonsens.

Did it ever occur to you that Hamilton can be getting more out of his slower can than Max is getting out of his? That is very likely ans very possible.
Some of you are behaving like Max is the perfect driver and cannot under perform. He may very well could have gone faster and be more dominant and we will never know. The end of the day its just 12 points in it for whatever reason and the championship is very close and this is not normally the case in modern F1 with 2 different cars.
The Mercedes by the technical regs alone is a disadvantaged car. It makes sense that Rob can see the data that show the redbull to be the better machine and he has no reason to lie.
Smedley is in fact not even a Hamilton fan.
He was the same man that ask Massa to destoy Hamilton's race back in the past. Rob has never shown any kind of soft spot for hamilton. He is quite unbiased in his observations.

[Ryar]

And Smedley was talking about the car being the best. Which it has been for much of the season.
Have points been dropped? Yes, because no team is perfect. Could Max and the team have done things better and had more points now? Yes. Likewise Mercedes and Hamilton. And every other team and driver on the grid. That's not bias, it's life. Humans aren't perfect.

.
And just to add something about this statement by Smedley.
"If I had to choose a car, I would choose the Red Bull. I think it's just the better car and it has been all season."

Based on what?

Imola, Portugal, Spain, France, Hungary, Monza, Russia, Turkey and America, Mercedes was convincingly faster.

Red Bull was only convincingly faster in Austria. Even at a race like Zandvoort where Max won, the data shows that Mercedes was faster.

The only races Max really won by force majeure were Monaco (after a very bad weekend at Mercedes) and Austria.

But if Hamilton loses, it must of course be the car. It doesn't matter how many strategic blunders Mercedes makes, or how often Hamilton himself makes a mistake. He is behind in the championship so the car is not that good.

“It has been a better car all season" is absolute nonsens.

Did it ever occur to you that Hamilton can be getting more out of his slower can than Max is getting out of his?

It could very well be other way round. Looking at Bottas' performance against Lewis and Perez's against Max, the credible argument would be that Max is most likely getting more than Lewis from the car. Besides, Lewis has been error prone, showing he is overdriving without understanding the limits of the car. So is Mercedes pit wall. The W12 is definitely better. The team, car and the driver combination is the difference this season, not just the car.

The Mercedes by the technical regs alone is a disadvantaged car. It makes sense that Rob can see the data that show the redbull to be the better machine and he has no reason to lie.
Smedley is in fact not even a Hamilton fan.
He was the same man that ask Massa to destoy Hamilton's race back in the past. Rob has never shown any kind of soft spot for hamilton. He is quite unbiased in his observations.

Rules are same for everyone. If 2021 hurt Mercedes, then 2014 and 2019 hurt Red Bull. It's a stale argument. Anyone that understands F1 cars, knows this season, neither team has had the consistently "faster" car. It's has been circuit specific. Data also points a huge uptick in performance of W12 since Silverstone. Could be for multiple reasons and one of those, Pirelli's new construction has helped Mercedes and hurt Red Bull. That is a good compensation for 2021 rule impact for Mercedes. It enhanced W12's performance and hindered RB16B. Undoubtedly, FIA and Pirelli's have been at Mercedes's services when needed. 2013 secret tyre test, 2018 compound change, 2019 compound change and 2021, all helping Mercedes doesn't sound like coincidence.

[zibby43]

Rules are same for everyone. If 2021 hurt Mercedes, then 2014 and 2019 hurt Red Bull. It's a stale argument.

Rules are definitely the same for everyone. RBR did a better job this year.

But you can’t compare this year to 2014-2020. This year, there was a budget cap and CFD/wind tunnel restrictions for the first time ever. And don’t forget the ridiculous homologation rules.

All of that basically prohibited a team from unleashing unlimited development to rectify mistakes or issues. Add the biggest hurdle of the largest regulation change in history on the horizon, and there is just no way you can compare this year to the others.

[ringo]

Ryar.. the redbull is better. Everything you said is your own correlation and speculation.
Bottas and Hamilton cannot be used to measure redbull.
The performance of the car itself and how much performance they have avialable beyond what is needed is the best metric.
I wont prolong the discussion, I will accept Rob's assessment and many other ex drivers what they think.
You saying Hamilton doesnt know the limit of his car is hogwash and just downright disrespectful. How can a man driving F1 for 14 years not know the limit of his car?
What you are seeing is a car that is being driven at a capacity where it is not the most stable to be driven at.
I think you are preparing yourself mentally to accept the fallout of Max losing the WDC. It's easier to accept if his car was not the best. But do not worry, i do not think Max will lose this year. Something crazy has to happen it at least 2 races.

[Ryar]

Ryar.. the redbull is better. Everything you said is your own correlation and speculation.
Bottas and Hamilton cannot be used to measure redbull.
The performance of the car itself and how much performance they have avialable beyond what is needed is the best metric.
I wont prolong the discussion, I will accept Rob's assessment and many other ex drivers what they think.
You saying Hamilton doesnt know the limit of his car is hogwash and just downright disrespectful. How can a man driving F1 for 14 years not know the limit of his car?
What you are seeing is a car that is being driven at a capacity where it is not the most stable to be driven at.
I think you are preparing yourself mentally to accept the fallout of Max losing the WDC. It's easier to accept if his car was not the best. But do not worry, i do not think Max will lose this year. Something crazy has to happen it at least 2 races.

It was already discussed on these forums and quite frankly, junked that the AWS data that Rob is using, is worthless as it's all MI they are using, wihtout any credible inputs or assistance from teams, leaving a lot of gaping holes. It's a good attempt, but not the the most accurate one. You are free to believe him and I am free to hold to my opinions, which is what everyone including you do.
Regarding comment about Lewis, his errors this seasons are an evidence that he doesn't have full control on occasions. It's not disrespectful (because someone doesn't like it), it's just stating the facts. It's one thing to underdrive 2 second a lap faster car for 7 years, appearing to be in full control, sleep walking and entirely another thing when there is another competitor having a matching car with better driving capabilities, requiring operating at limit.
By hyping up RB16B, despite evidence suggesting what I said that the circuits are determining the performance of the cars and the uptick in W12 performance for reasons mentioned above, I would assume you are also preparing yourself if Lewis loses this year. That argument work both ways.

[Kingshark]

Rob Smedley thinks Red Bull have the best car. Gary Anderson thinks Mercedes have the best car.

For all this talk about how we are supposed to “believe the experts”, the experts contract each other all the time.

I prefer to make up my own mind, with the data I have available.

Smedley has access to quantifiable data. Gary Anderson just uses his imagination.

The same quantifiable data which told him that in Zandvoort, Verstappen’s hard tyres were 80% worn after about 6 laps.

If he finally sorts out his AWS graphics I might take his opinion more seriously.

[Gillian]

Ryar.. the redbull is better. Everything you said is your own correlation and speculation.
Bottas and Hamilton cannot be used to measure redbull.

That's very true and the same goes for you.

The performance of the car itself and how much performance they have avialable beyond what is needed is the best metric.

100% agree.

I wont prolong the discussion,

Much appreciated.

I will accept Rob's assessment and many other ex drivers what they think.

You are definitely allowed to do that but as been pointed out in this thread it is debatable at best how he got to his conclusion. I am not sure what other "many other ex drivers" you are referring to and also don't understand what more they can bring to the table than conjecture. You are also choosing to ignore the opinion of other experts seemingly because they don't align with your (desired) views.

You saying Hamilton doesnt know the limit of his car is hogwash and just downright disrespectful. How can a man driving F1 for 14 years not know the limit of his car?

Hamilton is not performing as well as he has been in former years. Looking at the mistakes he has made it is pretty obvious. How is that disrespectful? He's only human... And to put it into perspective go look back at all the things said about Vettel, a 4 times WDC.

What you are seeing is a car that is being driven at a capacity where it is not the most stable to be driven at.

That's your personal opinion and assessment, not a fact.

I think you are preparing yourself mentally to accept the fallout of Max losing the WDC. It's easier to accept if his car was not the best.

That goes both ways. Are you pushing the narrative that Red Bull is much faster to prepare yourself mentally for Hamilton losing the WDC?

But do not worry, i do not think Max will lose this year. Something crazy has to happen it at least 2 races.

I'm not so sure, it's very close.

[Just_a_fan]

It's one thing to underdrive 2 second a lap faster car for 7 years, appearing to be in full control, sleep walking and entirely another thing when there is another competitor having a matching car with better driving capabilities, requiring operating at limit.

Ah the old "2 seconds a lap faster for 7 years" chestnut. Total hogwash but it is still used as a stick to beat the man.

And as for who has the better driving abilities, until they drive the same car it's all opinion and no facts. For all we know, Hamilton might drive the RB16B faster than Max, given the chance.

Just enjoy the competition between two fierce competitors. Hopefully next year will give us even more such fights.

[Gillian]

It's one thing to underdrive 2 second a lap faster car for 7 years, appearing to be in full control, sleep walking and entirely another thing when there is another competitor having a matching car with better driving capabilities, requiring operating at limit.

Ah the old "2 seconds a lap faster for 7 years" chestnut. Total hogwash but it is still used as a stick to beat the man.

And as for who has the better driving abilities, until they drive the same car it's all opinion and no facts. For all we know, Hamilton might drive the RB16B faster than Max, given the chance.

Just enjoy the competition between two fierce competitors. Hopefully next year will give us even more such fights.

Totally agree! Good comment to end the discussion with.