2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

[AeroDynamic]

alright, I have a question.

In the analytics, the RB was going faster at the end of the straight to turn 1 than the MCS. on paper it looked like it wouldn't be the engine but just the breaking difference that allowed the RB to hit the breaks deeper into the breaking zone going into the corner.

Edit citing this:
https://the-race.com/formula-1/four-rea ... ng-defeat/

The accompanying data traces show that it was at least competitive with the Honda on power.

It’s a lower-rake car and that partly explains its higher speed through the trap at the end of the pit straight. But it’s also quicker out of Turn 3 onto the shorter back straight.

The fact that the Red Bull then overhauls it before the braking zone for Turn 4 despite its higher drag suggests there may be a difference in the deployment distribution between the two power units – but at the very least the Mercedes engine is in the ballpark and not the reason the car had been lagging to the Red Bull up until qualifying. This is consistent with Hamilton’s insistence that the deficit was in downforce.

So my question is this, How many tenths was the MCS's losing in laptop to the RB based on the breaking of Turn 1 alone? I mean in Qualifying and the race. I ask this because we saw MV breaking at the 50 metre boards which is about normal. And we saw over the weekend, the MCS would lock up and ruin its tyres trying to break in the normal zone of 50 metres – they started having to break just before the 100 metre boards instead, and as we saw, the RB flung past them. How many tenths is that worth?

I ask this because it would back up what MCS was suggesting; They mitigated the engine loss to the Honda by a fair bit, it might be on Par, though I don't think the Honda has lost its edge in altitude.

It also makes me think, without those issues in breaking, the MCS might have been closer by a couple tenths alone? bundle that with Hamilton not being happy with his set up, there was maybe a fair bit of pace locked away in the car. Perhaps the MCS has a ceiling of performance as high as the RB after all but is much more challenging to activate through set up because its sensitive to track layout and condition that bit more.

[dans79]

ah the "What if" game. It's the time of the season I guess.

imo, Spa should have never been awarded any points. That was a farce to even call the race has occured...

Yea, That was pure and simple butt covering to ensure attendees has no reason to receive refunds!

[PlatinumZealot]

Mercedes confirmed weaker on rear limited tracks. And RB does indeed make more downforce for a given wing size.


https://www.motorsportweek.com/2021/11/ ... -suit-w12/

Mercedes adamant upcoming tracks will suit W12
by Phillip Horton 16 hours ago


Mercedes believes it will hold a pace advantage at some of the remaining events in the 2021 Formula 1 season despite Red Bull’s recent performance.

Max Verstappen secured back-to-back victories in the United States and Mexico to pull 19 points clear of Lewis Hamilton in the Drivers’ Championship.

It moved Red Bull onto 10 victories for the season, four ahead of Mercedes’ tally, with the reigning champions now only one point in front in the Constructors’ battle.

Of the upcoming four rounds two – Qatar’s Losail and Saudi Arabia’s Jeddah – are brand-new for Formula 1, while Abu Dhabi’s Yas Marina has undergone revisions since 2020’s event.

“It’s difficult because normally this far into the season you see the performance settle down a bit and the swings are still big,” said Mercedes’ Trackside Engineering Director Andrew Shovlin.



“There will be circuits that will suit us, we had very strong races in Turkey and Sochi and plenty of strong races since the summer break.

“So it will be up and down. We’ve definitely got out work cut out, on balance they are a little bit ahead of us but it’ll get affected by the weather, the track temperatures, those will play a part.

“But the bigger thing will be the circuit characteristics. It seems when we’re on an understeery track we tend to go a little bit better, and then at the last two races, it was very much about rear tyre overheating, and it’s quite clear they have the advantage when we’re in that situation.”

Shovlin suggested the two front-running teams should be closer in Brazil but outlined the key indicators that are likely to have an influence.



“The weather inherently is very unstable there,” Shovlin said of Sao Paulo. “You can have 50-degree track one day and it can be a washout the next.

“I think if it is a hot circuit it’ll probably move it in their direction, a bit of cloud cover may well suit us.

“But one advantage they had [in Mexico] is they were able to go up a step on downforce from the rear wing they normally run to their max downforce wing, but for us that’s the one that we run normally, it’s just their car seems to have more downforce than us on identical sized wings. And I think that played into their favour.

“In Brazil that should be less of an issue but it’s very hard to predict, and like coming here, we’ll look at the weaknesses of our car and work out how we can minimise them.”

[Tizz]

In the analytics, the RB was going faster at the end of the straights than the MCS.

I have not seen any analysis claiming RB to be faster at the end of the straights. Do you have an example ?

[Juzh]

In the analytics, the RB was going faster at the end of the straights than the MCS.

I have not seen any analysis claiming RB to be faster at the end of the straights. Do you have an example ?

He doesnt because its not true, like for like without slipstream mercedes was 8-10 kmh faster.

[AeroDynamic]

In the analytics, the RB was going faster at the end of the straights than the MCS.

I have not seen any analysis claiming RB to be faster at the end of the straights. Do you have an example ?

He doesnt because its not true, like for like without slipstream mercedes was 8-10 kmh faster.

No, maybe I explained it wrong. I will try and find the speed map, the Mercedes was faster on the straights but at the corner entry the RB was ahead, just like in the footage of the race because of the breaking. It was either on the the-race website or somewhere else. I'll try and find it.

[AeroDynamic]

Okay @juzh Here you go buddy, I assume you're the guy that negged me for this? If its wrong my bad, I thought this was reliable. But it seems to fit what I watched on Sunday: The Mercedes slows down sooner than the red bull at the end of turn 1 because of its breaking limitations, hence Max flying past before they even get to the corner.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/four-rea ... ng-defeat/

The accompanying data traces show that it was at least competitive with the Honda on power.

It’s a lower-rake car and that partly explains its higher speed through the trap at the end of the pit straight. But it’s also quicker out of Turn 3 onto the shorter back straight.

The fact that the Red Bull then overhauls it before the braking zone for Turn 4 despite its higher drag suggests there may be a difference in the deployment distribution between the two power units – but at the very least the Mercedes engine is in the ballpark and not the reason the car had been lagging to the Red Bull up until qualifying. This is consistent with Hamilton’s insistence that the deficit was in downforce.

[Tizz]

@AeroDynamic It certainly supports your claim that RB is faster into the corner but it does not fit my perception of the situation there at all. The speed trap was pretty close to the corner and Merc was faster there each and every lap. If Verstappen was faster at the end of the straight as the graph indicates, Bottas should have started braking even before that point which seems an awful long way from the corner. I am not sure which lap is represented in this graph but I wonder if this is correct.

[Big Tea]

I have not seen any analysis claiming RB to be faster at the end of the straights. Do you have an example ?

He doesnt because its not true, like for like without slipstream mercedes was 8-10 kmh faster.

No, maybe I explained it wrong. I will try and find the speed map, the Mercedes was faster on the straights but at the corner entry the RB was ahead, just like in the footage of the race because of the breaking. It was either on the the-race website or somewhere else. I'll try and find it.

I saw a graphic the weekend that shows Max going deeper into the corner, is this the one you are thinking of? (break later?) I can not find it though

[AeroDynamic]

@AeroDynamic It certainly supports your claim that RB is faster into the corner but it does not fit my perception of the situation there at all. The speed trap was pretty close to the corner and Merc was faster there each and every lap. If Verstappen was faster at the end of the straight as the graph indicates, Bottas should have started braking even before that point which seems an awful long way from the corner. I am not sure which lap is represented in this graph but I wonder if this is correct.

Thats what im trying to say – did you watch practice sessions? The MCS was locking its tyres badly and ruining them. They couldn't break at the 50 metre boards it seems without locking up? that's why he got on the radio bemoaning to the team about the breaking issues not being good enough for the event because Max seems to be able to break the more normal distance to the corner around 50 metres?

[hollus]

Beware of interpreting minisectors as if they represents what really happens in any meter of track. Divide any track in 18 minisectors, as they do, and many will include both straight and corner. And the minisector time will average through both. They are not real time GPS, nor are they telemetry. They are minisectors, timed only at entrance and exit.

[AeroDynamic]

Beware of interpreting minisectors as if they represents what really happens in any meter of track. Divide any track in 18 minisectors, as they do, and many will include both straight and corner. And the minisector time will average through both. They are not real time GPS, nor are they telemetry. They are minisectors, timed only at entrance and exit.

Ok, thanks for explaining that. But getting back to the heart of my actual question; how much tenths might Mercedes have been losing on the long straight if they had to break earlier than other cars as Hamilton spoke on when he bemoaned it, and as it appeared in the race when Max was going faster for longer toward the corner?

[Tizz]

@AeroDynamic It certainly supports your claim that RB is faster into the corner but it does not fit my perception of the situation there at all. The speed trap was pretty close to the corner and Merc was faster there each and every lap. If Verstappen was faster at the end of the straight as the graph indicates, Bottas should have started braking even before that point which seems an awful long way from the corner. I am not sure which lap is represented in this graph but I wonder if this is correct.

Thats what im trying to say – did you watch practice sessions? The MCS was locking its tyres badly and ruining them. They couldn't break at the 50 metre boards it seems without locking up? that's why he got on the radio bemoaning to the team about the breaking issues not being good enough for the event because Max seems to be able to break the more normal distance to the corner around 50 metres?

Now I understand your question. Yes, I saw them in the run-off but thought it was caused by understeer. Never thought about it very much but you got a point... However, I do not have an answer. But I'm pretty sure one of the aero-guys will have an answer. I mean real aero-guys.

[AeroDynamic]

@AeroDynamic It certainly supports your claim that RB is faster into the corner but it does not fit my perception of the situation there at all. The speed trap was pretty close to the corner and Merc was faster there each and every lap. If Verstappen was faster at the end of the straight as the graph indicates, Bottas should have started braking even before that point which seems an awful long way from the corner. I am not sure which lap is represented in this graph but I wonder if this is correct.

Thats what im trying to say – did you watch practice sessions? The MCS was locking its tyres badly and ruining them. They couldn't break at the 50 metre boards it seems without locking up? that's why he got on the radio bemoaning to the team about the breaking issues not being good enough for the event because Max seems to be able to break the more normal distance to the corner around 50 metres?

Now I understand your question. Yes, I saw them in the run-off but thought it was caused by understeer. Never thought about it very much but you got a point... However, I do not have an answer. But I'm pretty sure one of the aero-guys will have an answer. I mean real aero-guys.

Yeah I’m asking this with the intent of uncovering that the Mercedes actually lost even more tenths on the straight which would suggest it was able to make even more time on the RB and that the lap times were hundred by the breaking, meaning the Mercedes engine really is close to the Honda in lap time and the chassis / breaks was holding it back

[AeroDynamic]

I checked the onboards of verstappen and Hamilton on the run down to turn 1:

Hamilton starts downshifting right after the 150 metre board.
Verstappen begins downshifting just after the 100 metre board.

I would like to see the telemetry to know when they began breaking but isn’t breaking normally hand in hand with downshifting? It fits the minisectors map and backs what Peter Windsor referenced in his videos, along with what Hamilton was bemoaning of the breaking on his radio.. and again I pose the question: how many tenths is that worth on the straight if the Mercedes is slowing down 50 metres earlier than the red bull?