2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

[zibby43]

FIA has taken the sport backwards since 2019. I know we all don’t like penalties because they decide races. But I do think the solution instead of a time penalty is to offer the driver a choice: give the place to the driver you impeded, or take 5 seconds. The former allows the race to be decided by racing still, allows the race to really go on - the right way. Everyone gets their race without the FIA being so incompetent and weak. Jonathan Wheatley has literally turned out massi into some sort of pet. He literally told the FIA what the incident was instead of allowing the FIA to form their own opinion first. There’s something seriously wrong there, and in my opinion it is just as damaging to the integrity of the stewarding in F1 as it is to go personally lobbying at offices face to face.

I’m not one to sport tinfoil hats, however, it’s clear to me the FIA stewarding is skewed depending on who they are judging. And for me, they have gone from penalising max frequently (although the right decision most the time) to being too lenient where they otherwise wouldn’t be if it were someone else. It’s as if max has won the psychological game off track with them

‘Let them race’ has clearly become ‘let them foul until it becomes a crash’ for the benefit of “letting them race” but if it’s drivers further back, like Lando and Checo, they apply the rules like it’s pre 2019.

Lots of good points here.

I think Mercedes may legitimately protest the non-action on Max once the video footage becomes available. Max’s admission of braking too late on worn tires might also work against him as an admission of guilt.

That’s 3 potentially very valuable championship points. As much as I hate the off-the-track stuff, RBR played that game with Lewis/Merc post-Silverstone.

[AeroDynamic]

FIA has taken the sport backwards since 2019. I know we all don’t like penalties because they decide races. But I do think the solution instead of a time penalty is to offer the driver a choice: give the place to the driver you impeded, or take 5 seconds. The former allows the race to be decided by racing still, allows the race to really go on - the right way. Everyone gets their race without the FIA being so incompetent and weak. Jonathan Wheatley has literally turned out massi into some sort of pet. He literally told the FIA what the incident was instead of allowing the FIA to form their own opinion first. There’s something seriously wrong there, and in my opinion it is just as damaging to the integrity of the stewarding in F1 as it is to go personally lobbying at offices face to face.

I’m not one to sport tinfoil hats, however, it’s clear to me the FIA stewarding is skewed depending on who they are judging. And for me, they have gone from penalising max frequently (although the right decision most the time) to being too lenient where they otherwise wouldn’t be if it were someone else. It’s as if max has won the psychological game off track with them

‘Let them race’ has clearly become ‘let them foul until it becomes a crash’ for the benefit of “letting them race” but if it’s drivers further back, like Lando and Checo, they apply the rules like it’s pre 2019.

Lots of good points here.

I think Mercedes may legitimately protest the non-action on Max once the video footage becomes available. Max’s admission of braking too late on worn tires might also work against him as an admission of guilt.

That’s 3 potentially very valuable championship points. As much as I hate the off-the-track stuff, RBR played that game with Lewis/Merc post-Silverstone.

Can they appeal the decision? On paper, if the video exists, then yeah the case has potential because clearly the meat on the bone of any appeal is if new evidence comes to light. Since stewards didn’t make a decision with all evidence that is available until after the race, that suggests good grounds to appeal. But it all depends on the video. Thing is, based on what the stewards said, they think his mistake is fine, they will only change stance if something appears intentional. IMO that mistake warrants a penalty regardless if he intentionally didn’t make the corner, he unintentionally lost control and failed to keep the car near the track limit let alone on track.

[dans79]

FIA has taken the sport backwards since 2019. I know we all don’t like penalties because they decide races. But I do think the solution instead of a time penalty is to offer the driver a choice: give the place to the driver you impeded, or take 5 seconds. The former allows the race to be decided by racing still, allows the race to really go on - the right way.

I don't think the drivers/team should be given the choice.

Take Max on Lewis in Bahrain this year. Max said on the radio the team shouldn't have made him given the place back, as he thought he could build a big enough gap to negate a 5 second time penalty.

https://www.racefans.net/2021/03/28/ver ... into-lead/

“Why couldn’t you just let me go?” Verstappen asked his team over radio after taking the chequered flag. “I could’ve easily pulled the five seconds. I prefer we lose a win like that than be second like this.”

In response, Red Bull team principal Christian Horner explained the team had been given no option by race control.
“We had the instruction from race control unfortunately, Max,” said Horner over Verstappen’s radio channel. “But that was a hell of a drive you put on there.”

We've seen in the past, a driver build a big enough gap to negate the time penalty.


I think it should be on the teams to tell their driver to give the place back or not, in a very short time period, like 30 seconds or less. If the stewards decide the move was in violation of the rules, then the stewards should force them to give the place back, and give them a time penalty. The penalty needs to be harsh enough that drivers/teams will not risk it.

[zibby43]

“Was that all from a fresh engine? If so, it implies the fresh engine is worth around 0.35s over an old one (as the difference between 0.55% and 0.98% faster), which sounds a lot. But perhaps 0.2s of that is the actual difference and the remaining 0.15s is Mercedes running it in a higher mode, with an extra engine in the pool, nothing to lose and a points deficit to overcome.”

This is an excerpt from Mark Hughes’ recent piece.

If that’s true, and Merc can afford it under the cap (EDIT: engines are not part of the cap), why not run a new ICE for Hamilton at every race from here on out?

That’s a *huge* advantage.

[_cerber1]

I would like to be clear, is Hamilton using a new engine specification, or is it just a new engine like everyone else?

[marvin78]

Maybe it is just a new engine. But if you have multiple relatively new engines on the stock, you can use higher modes for a longer time. That could be the special ingredient.

[restless]

https://twitter.com/vetteleclerc/status ... 94656?s=21

15 km/h is HUGE
Its like (with same drag), more than 100 hp difference. I have to wonder if Bottas has same engine revision or is running lower mode

PS: if these numbers are nonsense, try to calculate how many HP are needed to get 15km/h delta at speeds above 300

[Manoah2u]

15 is a good difference yes but let's be fair here, that was measured WITH DRS and a slipstream / tow, so it's a rather unfair picture. It doesn't mean Merc is 15 kph faster by all of their own. Another issue, if the RB has more wing/downforce, then obviously the top speed of a lower drag car like the Merc will have a higher top speed. If the RB is a lot faster in the corners thanks to their downforce levels, then they 'easily' negate a top speed defecit.

Sky reported that the top speed difference between Max and Lewis was generally 5 Kph - without DRS and slipstreaming / tow. That's not THAT huge to be honest.

Anyway, very happy with the result, the team did great and i loved seeing the entire team on warpath. I like Toto in full warrior mode, gloves off, as he said himself '@#$% em all'.
I think - hope - that they're gonna go even more all out for the upcoming GP's.

Their goal now is to get pole and win for the next 2 gp's and have Bottas finish P2 at atleast one of them. If they cannot manage that, then they must sacrifice bottas (if he finishes behind Max) to get a fastest lap to deny Max that point, and / or give Lewis a chance for fastest lap. Perhaps they could see if there are tactics in using Russell and Stroll as backmarkers.

If Lewis wins the next 2 GP's, Bottas gets a fastest lap and denies Max one, and Lewis grabs one fastest lap, Hamilton will be 1 point leading into the championship in the final GP.

If they manage to get Bottas P2 in 1 race, that gets Hamilton with an even bigger gap - if Bottas is twice P2 in the race and Lewis P1, then Lewis doesn't take 7 points each race but 10 points, making it 20 points in 2 races, having a lead of 6 points. If Lewis ALSO gets 2 fastest laps in both races, then he has a lead of 8 points and the only chance for Max then to win, is for him to finish P1 in the last race AND get fastest lap - to which they simply have to sacrifice Bottas to get the fastest lap with brand new tires.

This race has changed everything, and i couldn't have imagined it possible after the DSQ. I am still amazed by Lewis getting from P20 to P5 and then from P10 to P1.

This was one of the most spectacular drives i have seen yet and reminds me of Button in 2011 @ Canada.

[radosav]

i think this engine has more power than competition, they just had to change it for safety reasons, even old one could be as good as this, only merc knows the limits, they designed it

[ringo]

Bottas engines were used as real world testing in the free practice sessions as well as in the race.
They got a better read on the damage cycle profile.
But again i think people are overstating the advantage.
Hamilton did not fly by the Redbulls like they were not there. He had to work hard to pass Perez and also to pass Max.
If we recall Max in COTA who was stuck on hamilton's gearbox all day before the undercut, it is possible to have a massive speed advantage with the right setup.

Here at brazil we were seeing 3 tenths advantage to redbull alone in sector 2. So it made sense that the other 2 sectors would have been less top speed for them.

Anyhow i await the video of Max's onboard and i hope Toto is mercilless and asks for FIA to look at it. I know yhe FIA did not investigate at all and that may be their loop hole. But i think their bring the sport into disrepute for failing their duties at a Grand Prix.
But as Toto says the gloves are off. If he can grt Max DQ with 2 black flags he should. Or even a 5 second penalty we will take that.

[mstar]

i think this engine has more power than competition, they just had to change it for safety reasons, even old one could be as good as this, only merc knows the limits, they designed it

I cannot remember which season but i think it was andy carrol mentioning if they really wanted to run the engine full power the rivals be shocked about the performance? So they turned the engines down for reliability concerns. I wonder with this 5 grid penalty they can run these engine on MAX for maybe 2 races before it shows signs of degrading then they need to cut the power delivery for reliability?

[PlatinumZealot]

Degradation is 1 tenth per lap less in qualifying for the next race Toto said. After that who knows? Engine go boom?

But yes, 2 tenths per lap is probably too much and that engine will be like a ticking time bomb, so it will be set aside and the Turkey engine now comes back into play.

I guess the Turkey engine will be used in Losail, and this Brazil one will be used in Jeddah.

For Abu Dhabi, I see a fresh new engine juiced to the gills and balls firmly to the wall. Strat 2 all race. Honda engine should be heavily worn at this point too.

[Big Tea]

No point at all protesting as no resulting action will favour Merc or Lewis. Worst case would be points on Ves licence, which is meaningless by it's self.
Nothing they now do would be of benefit except a grid drop next race, and we all know that will not happen as the race is over now and they cannot penalise the incident as it was not investigated and RBR given notification

[nacho]

Was there a straight line speed difference between Bottas and Hamilton?

[restless]

15 is a good difference yes but let's be fair here, that was measured WITH DRS and a slipstream / tow, so it's a rather unfair picture. It doesn't mean Merc is 15 kph faster by all of their own.

According to AMuS, these 15km/h are WITHOUT DRS for both.
I've seen pictures when Hamilton used DRS, and his trap speed was 35km/h higher.
Its not me who claims these figures its on AMUS site.
Why vote negative the post for citing the facts?!