2021 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Nov 05 - 07

[dans79]

And here is the voice of someone who has never driven an open wheel race car in anger. Do you really think it's that easy, that one has time to think through all the permutations and decide the 'best' solution and then achieve it? Just try it in real life, not on a computer, but in actual wheel to wheel racing in a single seater. It ain't what you think. What a bunch ! I've raced FF1600, FF2000, and Atlantic and the computer armchair drivers advising are pretty amusing to read. You have no idea.....

Lewis Hamilton pretty much suggested Bottas do the exact same as mentioned above. Which is one permutation - use the mirror and close the door. Not that complicated lol.

Which Lewis himself couldn't do in Imola.

By your standards, Max failed horrendously in Austin then, as he was 1 on 1 with Lewis.

[Ryar]

Lewis Hamilton pretty much suggested Bottas do the exact same as mentioned above. Which is one permutation - use the mirror and close the door. Not that complicated lol.

Which Lewis himself couldn't do in Imola.

By your standards, Max failed horrendously in Austin then, as he was 1 on 1 with Lewis.

I didn't start this argument that Bottas failed so I don't say Max failed. It's you who started by saying, Bottas failed to do the job and I then zibby added on it. On the contrary, I am willing to understand that Bottas couldn't do better, same with Lewis in Imola and same with Max in US. But if you say Bottas failed, then Lewis also failed. Do I feel that way, no.

[kalinka]

Imola 2021 was 2 Red Bulls vs. Lewis...a very different defend strategy than 2 vs. 2...and in that part of the championship there was no reason for higher risks. The race was decided much later, and there was a real chance for Lewis to win it until his error. Was Max better at the start? Sure, but ( especially in wet races ) you rarely win it at the first corner.

[Vaexa]

Bottas and/or Hamilton would've likely been penalised for any attempts to push Verstappen towards or even off track, given Masi published a document (document #55, Race Director's Note) explicitly reminding drivers that any attempts to hinder drivers by pushing them off the track or through any other "unusual change of direction" would be reported to the stewards.

I know that's probably unpalatable for the Mercedes fans who think a 2019 Ferrari style boxing in would've somehow kept Verstappen from winning this, but one or both Mercedes drivers being penalised likely would've just made the job a lot easier for Red Bull.

This rule doesn't seem to apply for lap one.

Document #55 explicitly states this also applies to the start of the race. I'd do one of the fancy text links but it's been far too long since I messed with forum hyperlinking, so here's the plain link. https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... uction.pdf

[Wouter]

Bottas and/or Hamilton would've likely been penalised for any attempts to push Verstappen towards or even off track, given Masi published a document (document #55, Race Director's Note) explicitly reminding drivers that any attempts to hinder drivers by pushing them off the track or through any other "unusual change of direction" would be reported to the stewards.

I know that's probably unpalatable for the Mercedes fans who think a 2019 Ferrari style boxing in would've somehow kept Verstappen from winning this, but one or both Mercedes drivers being penalised likely would've just made the job a lot easier for Red Bull.

This rule doesn't seem to apply for lap one.

Document #55 explicitly states this also applies to the start of the race. I'd do one of the fancy text links but it's been far too long since I messed with forum hyperlinking, so here's the plain link. https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... uction.pdf

Thank you @ Vaexa! I knew I red it somewhere, but I couldn't find it.

Sunday before the race:

Drivers and Competitors are reminded of the provisions of the Appendix L Chapter IV Circuit Article
2b to the FIA International Sporting Code.
In particular the following provisions which also apply at the start of the race:
“However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond
the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited.
Any driver who appears guilty of any of the above offences will be reported to the Stewards."

[atanatizante]

[TimW]

This rule doesn't seem to apply for lap one.

Document #55 explicitly states this also applies to the start of the race. I'd do one of the fancy text links but it's been far too long since I messed with forum hyperlinking, so here's the plain link. https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... uction.pdf

Thank you @ Vaexa! I knew I red it somewhere, but I couldn't find it.

Sunday before the race:

Drivers and Competitors are reminded of the provisions of the Appendix L Chapter IV Circuit Article
2b to the FIA International Sporting Code.
In particular the following provisions which also apply at the start of the race:
“However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond
the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited.
Any driver who appears guilty of any of the above offences will be reported to the Stewards."

I find the wording in this section rather weak, not gaining positions is a bad criterion, in many cases the advantage of leaving the track would be not loosing positions:

I would like to provide the following clarification regarding the policing of the Turn 1/2/3 requirements
for the Race Start or any subsequent Standing Start Restart ONLY:
Any driver who leaves the track at Turn 1/2 will be required to ensure that they re-join the track safely
and do not gain a lasting advantage. In practical terms this will mean giving up any positions that were
gained.
The instruction to go around the bollard at Turn 3 in this circumstance ONLY will not be a
requirement.

Max was already ahead by turn 1, so if Bottas would have breaked late and left no space on the outside of turn 1, Max could have left the track and (keeping his foot down) cut turn 2 and rejoin (safely, because still in front)at turn 3..... Perfectly legal because he would not have gained positions. (Basically what he did in 2016..)

[PlatinumZealot]

If Bottas is penalized for pushing Max wide. That is not a problem for Mercedes if we compared what happened to him with Daniel. Hehe. Mercedes would have actually came off better by any count. A win and maybe a fourth place. A "tactical foul" is what Toto called it. It would have been an acceptable scheme in earlier times, but Bottas and Toto are too nice they don't have the guts to do it.

Any back to an earlier point mentioned: Bottas did not have to push Max on the grass to obstruct him at all. All he had to do was leave no more than 110% of a cars width and Max would have aborted his plans.

It would have been Lewis first, Bottas second and Max third into turn one. Bottas poor reactions cost Mercedes the race win basically.

[Wouter]

Bottas poor reactions cost Mercedes the race win basically.

I don't think so.

https://en.mclarenf-1.com/2021/gp/s8133 ... s/482-821/

[Tizz]

Bottas and/or Hamilton would've likely been penalised for any attempts to push Verstappen towards or even off track, given Masi published a document (document #55, Race Director's Note) explicitly reminding drivers that any attempts to hinder drivers by pushing them off the track or through any other "unusual change of direction" would be reported to the stewards.

I know that's probably unpalatable for the Mercedes fans who think a 2019 Ferrari style boxing in would've somehow kept Verstappen from winning this, but one or both Mercedes drivers being penalised likely would've just made the job a lot easier for Red Bull.

Thx ! This and the explanation by James Vowles as to Bottas' main objective means I was too quick in pointing att Valteri.
Once again reality was a bit different. When will I learn ?

[Vaexa]

Bottas and/or Hamilton would've likely been penalised for any attempts to push Verstappen towards or even off track, given Masi published a document (document #55, Race Director's Note) explicitly reminding drivers that any attempts to hinder drivers by pushing them off the track or through any other "unusual change of direction" would be reported to the stewards.

I know that's probably unpalatable for the Mercedes fans who think a 2019 Ferrari style boxing in would've somehow kept Verstappen from winning this, but one or both Mercedes drivers being penalised likely would've just made the job a lot easier for Red Bull.

Thx ! This and the explanation by James Vowles as to Bottas' main objective means I was too quick in pointing att Valteri.
Once again reality was a bit different. When will I learn ?

You're learning just by admitting you're wrong, aren't you? Plenty of folk who still insist the fluffed start was 100% on Bottas.

I'm not a Mercedes fan but I find their debrief videos very interesting and honest, and I liked Vowles' insight into the start this week.

[Tizz]

Bottas and/or Hamilton would've likely been penalised for any attempts to push Verstappen towards or even off track, given Masi published a document (document #55, Race Director's Note) explicitly reminding drivers that any attempts to hinder drivers by pushing them off the track or through any other "unusual change of direction" would be reported to the stewards.

I know that's probably unpalatable for the Mercedes fans who think a 2019 Ferrari style boxing in would've somehow kept Verstappen from winning this, but one or both Mercedes drivers being penalised likely would've just made the job a lot easier for Red Bull.

Thx ! This and the explanation by James Vowles as to Bottas' main objective means I was too quick in pointing att Valteri.
Once again reality was a bit different. When will I learn ?

Plenty of folk who still insist the fluffed start was 100% on Bottas.

Correct. Hamilton for example

[Andres125sx]

I´ve just watched the race... FIA is a joke, Max move was a straight forward penalty. If it´s allowed to push you rival out of track to prevent an overtake racing is done.

I´m glad Lewis finally got the victory, but it should have been a Mercedes 1-2.

Max still a dirty driver, despite lately he was showing some maturity, when things go south he still show himself

[Just_a_fan]

I´ve just watched the race... FIA is a joke, Max move was a straight forward penalty. If it´s allowed to push you rival out of track to prevent an overtake racing is done.

I´m glad Lewis finally got the victory, but it should have been a Mercedes 1-2.

Max still a dirty driver, despite lately he was showing some maturity, when things go south he still show himself

Wrong thread my friend.

[Incognito]

It's now clear that Bottas did, indeed, make a crucial mistake at the start. Two in fact. It's subtle, but if you look closely at the onboards and the overhead view, you can just make out that Bottas both braked and turned the steering wheel for Turn 1. To make one of these rookie mistakes is inexcusable for a racer of Bottas' experience. To make two? Unthinkable!

We now have ample proof that both braking and turning are optional. Going straight on and taking an opponent with you is the definition of 'racing' and certainly wouldn't be considered 'abnormal' or 'hindering' to a driver on the outside.