Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

[andartop]

My problem is as yet all we've got is the FIA saying "We asked Lewis this question, and he said no he didn't conciously allow Trulli to pass him". Unfortunately they've yet to back this up with any evidence to support this claim.

The teams are required by the FIA to give evidence for just about everything. Personally I think the FIA should be just as accountable. If they are going to label someone like this I feel they should rpoove it. Not just say "We're the governing body, so what we say is right, you can trust us ". Considering they KNOW that people are questioning their bias/ethics you'd have thought that to release transcripts of the FIA hearing with Hamilton would be benificial for everyone involved?

FIA prove their case
There's no question on the matter
The situation is dealt with transparantly...its an interesting word that, last time we had a big scandel it popped up, the politician (Bernie, Max et al) like to talk about "Things being more transparant in future", but does it ever happen? Does it hell.

I'm not trying to say Lewis/Mclaren did no wrong, I'm not even saying the FIA are telling lies or twisting stories or trying to stitch them up. I'm just saying that as followers of the sport its nice to be told everything, so we too can evaluate things. And when somebody does not give evidence to prove an allegation they are making its usually for one of two reasons:

A) They have something to hide
B) They have a superiority complex and feel they are above everyone else and can just do as they please without justifying it. Usually this is coupled with a vague quoting of some legal mumbo-jumbo which, in reality, means nothing when read out of context.

Neither of which I'm happy to just "accept". The FIA needs to get off its high horse and deal with issues properly, not only can they not (or choose not to) validate their findings but they also seem incapable of coming to such colcusions within a reasonable time-frame. They are, to all intents and purposes, incompetent, lacking direction, and not fit for purpose. The sooner we get a new president the better, because the current incumbant is drunk at the wheel.

Well, with the same logic, if McLaren had nothing to hide or be afraid of, or did not feel superior, they wouldn't have had to lie in the first place, they would have openly admitted they instructed Lewis to slow down and let Trulli pass because they were confused. It is likely that in that case there would have been no punishment for anyone. Has any driver ever been punished for being confused and slowing down allowing the guy following to overtake?

[ringo]

Anything lewis does will get him in trouble, they are watching him like a hawk. Its better he gets a white helmet and behave like the stig and only speak morse code from now.

Of course they do! If you're a well known cheater (McLaren 2007) and liar (McLaren 2007), you 're much more likely to be in the spotlight, especially when you 're fighting for the championship!

So you're saying he should be treated differently?
He is in no position to fight for the championship at the earlier part of the season with that car. I guess they fear his potential.
I don't see him as a cheater or liar, he was cheated many times though.

Well to not prolong this argument, right or wrong, it leaves a bad taste in ones mouth coming into the new race weekend. I hope it doesn't affect his team's race.

[Spencifer_Murphy]

It's all mclhating fiarrari. The fia never started an investigation by themselves before after the stewards's decision. I say this smells. Probably the fia noticed that mcl gained by the whole situation and thought: hmm, we need to get ferrari back in the game. Let's help our italian friend trulli.

This season is already screwed, one race and again. If hamilton loses his title by six points it's al controversial. Another season wrecked, thanks to fia, I --- hate them!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yup, it's all a Ferrari conspiracy. In fact, Enzo is NOT dead, but rather is playing drums in Elvis Presley's band, "The REALLY Grateful Dead."

LMFAO Donskar!

I hear that band is planing on recording an album with contributions from artists as widespread as:

Tupac Shakur
Buddy Holly
and Glenn Miller

Seriously though, Ferrari conspiracy?! Seriously? You MIGHT be able to argue FIA conspiracy, but to link Ferrari to something completly unrelated is a little bit...erm...bigoted is the only word that springs to mind. "Anything happens to Lewis or Mclaren, blame Ferrari, or the FIA....OR BOTH!"

I'm trying not to lay blame at anybody's doorstep. I don't even know if they did lie...hell it could be a misunderstanding (highly unlikely, BUT it is possible).

Either way, as andatop pointed out, Mclaren have recently been involved in a rather large (understatement of the YEAR) scandal in 2007. If you're going to appear in front of the FIA for anything you best make sure you get your story straight, because if you don't they aren't going to give you the benefit of the doubt, they will assume you have deliberately mislead them, and who can blame them?!

Like I said, I'll await conclusive proof, but if it does show the stories don't match, whether they intentionally lied or not, you cannot argue against the penalty.

EDIT: btw donskar, I know it wasn't you suggusting its a Ferrari conspiracy, the latter portion of my post was dealing with the "Ferrari Conspiracy" idea in general. Just in case you got the wrong end of the stick, becuase after re-reading my post I can understand how my quoting your post could have given the wrong impression.

[Spencifer_Murphy]

Well, with the same logic, if McLaren had nothing to hide or be afraid of, or did not feel superior, they wouldn't have had to lie in the first place, they would have openly admitted they instructed Lewis to slow down and let Trulli pass because they were confused. It is likely that in that case there would have been no punishment for anyone. Has any driver ever been punished for being confused and slowing down allowing the guy following to overtake?

True, I'm not saying Mclaren shouldn't be penalised mind, just that I'd like to see
some transparancy from the FIA. If Mclaren are to be penalised for their superiority complex, who's going to penalise the FIA for doing the same thing.

A governing body should be impartial and transparent, if you can do both being transparant proves the impartiality and there can be no arguments, none at all.

[donskar]

So yeah.. the next race is upon us.

You chaps think they will have the order of the 1st GP finalized before the next one starts?

They should just change the title "Stewart" to "Judge" and let all the racers drive around, and then subjectively give them each a score after each race. Just like figure skating.

God, I hope Spanky and Bernie don't read this forum. Quiet! You'll give them ideas!

[The FOZ]

I'd like to see some transparancy from the FIA.

Ummm...I've seen transcripts of the McLaren team radio. I've read the interview with Lewis post race.

One says "Trulli passed me"

The other says "Lewis, slow down and let Trulli pass you"

Now, I have seen all the pertinent evidence for myself. FIA didn't have to FedEx this to my doorstep, I found it after about 2 minutes of looking.

This is open and shut. It can't get simpler than this.

Why is there still discussion, even?

[donskar]

As a rabid Ferrari fan, I consider McLaren a worthy and dangerous adversary. BUT over the past 15-18 months or so they certainly have screwed up big time. I think they are basically an honorable team, but I could understand others taking the opposite position.

[Giblet]

Where are these people coming from.

As far as I can tell, at least two people joined this _technical_ forum to scream and yell about Hamilton.

Why does he polarize people enough to create a message board account just to argue?

[gcdugas]

The FIA clearly screwed up by ruling against Trulli without even hearing the radio from both teams and conducting an inquiry in a thorough and professional manner. It most likely was M-Benz and Mac's comments in the press that they let JT by that pressured them to amend their initial ruling. And to cover up their F'up, the FIA chose to cast aspersions at Mac etc. Well I for one want to hear exactly the transcript of what Lewis and Mac said to the stewards that "mislead" them. I am very inclined to believe that Lewis and Mac told the truth and the whole truth. Why deny what you openly said to the press, that Lewis was instructed to let JT by. Why deny anything that was clearly part of the record, namely the radio conversation? I believe Martin Whitmarsh when he said he thought they already had the radio records. It is implausible that they didn't have the radio records. Even if one believed that Mac were the biggest liars since George Bush and Tony Blair, why would you think that they would lie about something so manifestly provable? It is like believing that they asserted the race took place on a Wednesday. Moreover, they clearly and openly said that Lewis let JT by in their post race conference.

I am VERY inclined to believe that the FIA are casting aspersions, blame shifting and diverting our eyes away from their own manifest incompetence in ruling without all the evidence available to them. They have to have an excuse and poor Mac gets the blame as they were the only scapegoat available.

Let's hear the EXACT transcript of the exchange between Lewis, MW et. al. and the FIA before we believe the FIA's account of what was said. It is the old "Que Bono" question. And all indicators point to the FIA as the fibber.


And I don't think the fact that Mac aren't appealing is an admission of guilt. Toyota didn't appeal the initial ruling because, in the wacky world of the FIA, certain things aren't appealable. The same applies to Mac. The FIA would toss the appeal on admissibility grounds.

[Spencifer_Murphy]

Ummm...I've seen transcripts of the McLaren team radio.

So have I

I've read the interview with Lewis post race.

So have I

One says "Trulli passed me"

The other says "Lewis, slow down and let Trulli pass you".

Indeed it did. Unfortuntly its irrelevant as to why this saga is ongoing. The issue which is causing people to question this whole affair, as the FIA statements make clear, is that, according to them, when asked the question "Did you conciously let Trulli past you" Lewis replied "No". Which is disputed by the Mclaren radio transmission.

The fact Lewis says "Trulli passed me" is nothing more than a statement of fact. In no way whatsoever does that implicate Lewis of lying. "Did Trulli pass you? Yes he did, Trulli passed me." that is VERY different from "Did you conciously let Trulli past you?" "Yes I did." and THAT is what the FIA have said occured, however unlike the sources you and I have both seen, there is no clear proof that this exchange between Lewis & the FIA Stewards is accurate.

Now, I have seen all the pertinent evidence for myself. FIA didn't have to FedEx this to my doorstep, I found it after about 2 minutes of looking.

This is open and shut. It can't get simpler than this.

Why is there still discussion, even?

I'm not asking for the FIA to FedEX it to my doorstep (altho personally I'd prefer DHL), the "evidence" you found after two minutes of looking isn't conclusive, and that is why there is still a discussion. Yes it can get simpler than this...the FIA could release transcrpits that prove their statement:

"we asked Lewis [this] and he said [this]"

When they do that you are quite right, it is black & white, clearly defined and there can be no argument.

[Spencifer_Murphy]

The FIA clearly screwed up by ruling against Trulli without even hearing the radio from both teams and conducting an inquiry in a thorough and professional manner.

Agreed

Even if one believed that Mac were the biggest liars since George Bush and Tony Blair, why would you think that they would lie about something so manifestly provable?

And that is exactly what makes me question the FIA, they haven't provided proof of their side of the story AND as you say why would Mclaren lie about something clearly provable...it dosen't make sence.

Let's hear the EXACT transcript of the exchange between Lewis, MW et. al. and the FIA before we believe the FIA's account of what was said. It is the old "Que Bono" question...

Exactly, totally agree...

...And all indicators point to the FIA as the fibber.

...although I wouldn't go THAT far. lol. I personally see no pointers that the FIA are indeed lying, I just see them in equal doubt as I do Mclaren...I don't see what the FIA or Mclaren would gain by lying. It just doesn't make sence for either of them to. But that doesn't mean they didn't/aren't and THAT's why I'd like to see those transcripts.

And I don't think the fact that Mac aren't appealing is an admission of guilt. Toyota didn't appeal the initial ruling because, in the wacky world of the FIA, certain things aren't appealable. The same applies to Mac. The FIA would toss the appeal on admissibility grounds.

I agree with the bit in bold, but I'm not 100% sure if Mclaren cannot appeal this? I was just thinking that they may be thinking "Christ, the FIA have done us for this, look, the car's crap, we're no fighting for the title, lets just take it on the chin before they do us for anything else if we kick up a fuss." i.e...sometimes it best to let sleeping dog lie. (no pun intended with the whole "lie" thing btw!)

[gcdugas]

...And all indicators point to the FIA as the fibber.

...although I wouldn't go THAT far. lol. I personally see no pointers that the FIA are indeed lying, I just see them in equal doubt as I do Mclaren...I don't see what the FIA or Mclaren would gain by lying. It just doesn't make sence for either of them to. But that doesn't mean they didn't/aren't and THAT's why I'd like to see those transcripts.

The FIA gains a plausible cover story to excuse/deflect their incompetence from exposure.... even though we all know that ruling without hearing the radio is inexcusable.

[dave34m]

I know this has been said but why would LH and the team say they didnt let him past when they know that the stewards have access to the team radio and they would be found out. It all seems really strange and kinda unsettling.

Dave

[jddh1]

I know this has been said but why would LH and the team say they didnt let him past when they know that the stewards have access to the team radio and they would be found out. It all seems really strange and kinda unsettling.

Dave

It's called inexperience, my friend. If Ron Dennis was in charge this would not have happend, I don't think. It's just a transitional period that they must go through.

[andartop]

Anything lewis does will get him in trouble, they are watching him like a hawk. Its better he gets a white helmet and behave like the stig and only speak morse code from now.

Of course they do! If you're a well known cheater (McLaren 2007) and liar (McLaren 2007), you 're much more likely to be in the spotlight, especially when you 're fighting for the championship!

So you're saying he should be treated differently?
He is in no position to fight for the championship at the earlier part of the season with that car. I guess they fear his potential.
I don't see him as a cheater or liar, he was cheated many times though.

Well to not prolong this argument, right or wrong, it leaves a bad taste in ones mouth coming into the new race weekend. I hope it doesn't affect his team's race.

Of course not. He and McLaren DO have to pay extra attention though in situations exactly like this, cause you can bet your last penny that they WILL be very thoroughly examined.
Totally agree that it leaves a horrible taste. Let's just pray that they won't decide to punish the diffuser trio as well retrospectively. Otherwise we'll have the Grand Prix That You Could Never Tell Whether It's Finished. Yet.