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Yeah Sainz is up there with Leclerc too, something I honestly did not expect.
Norris did feel like the real thing IMO. That kid is going a long way provided he gets a proper car underneath him. I've always been a fan of Daniel but I do think Lando will prove to be the better driver even next year.
Between George, Lando, Charles and Max, this generation of drivers is probably the best I've seen in years.
PhillipM wrote:I mean to be fair Norris deliberately didn't race him for the win, that shows just how much class Norris has to be honest.
I said it last year and I'll say it again, even here, with Mclaren fans, people seriously underestimated Norris and Sainz's talent.
I don’t think you can say Lando deliberately did not race Daniel for the race win. Daniel was only going as fast as he had to to stay in front. This was clearly shown by Daniel setting the fastest lap on the last lap. Daniel has extra speed, he just did not need to use it. Daniel would have been foolish to have pushed the car harder than he had to just to stay in front of his own team mate. Daniel got to the front on merit and stayed there in front of both Lewis and Max up to the point they crashed after the first pit stops. I would argue it would have been less likely Lando would have stayed in front to Lewis and Max if they had not crashed.
Yes Lando did say he could go faster and was not going to. He never really got close and I don’t know a racing driver who would have not said that in the same position, even if one wheel was falling off! They all claim they are faster when they are behind a team mate. This is rarely the case, unless on different strategies. It’s usually down to managing resources such a fuel and tires. You push and defend when it’s the opposition. You coast and take the correct line when it’s your team mate.
PhillipM wrote:I mean to be fair Norris deliberately didn't race him for the win, that shows just how much class Norris has to be honest.
I said it last year and I'll say it again, even here, with Mclaren fans, people seriously underestimated Norris and Sainz's talent.
I don’t think you can say Lando deliberately did not race Daniel for the race win. Daniel was only going as fast as he had to to stay in front. This was clearly shown by Daniel setting the fastest lap on the last lap. Daniel has extra speed, he just did not need to use it. Daniel would have been foolish to have pushed the car harder than he had to just to stay in front of his own team mate. Daniel got to the front on merit and stayed there in front of both Lewis and Max up to the point they crashed after the first pit stops. I would argue it would have been less likely Lando would have stayed in front to Lewis and Max if they had not crashed.
Yes Lando did say he could go faster and was not going to. He never really got close and I don’t know a racing driver who would have not said that in the same position, even if one wheel was falling off! They all claim they are faster when they are behind a team mate. This is rarely the case, unless on different strategies. It’s usually down to managing resources such a fuel and tires. You push and defend when it’s the opposition. You coast and take the correct line when it’s your team mate.
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Daniel struggles at technical tracks, while he is competitive at easier layouts. Lando is capable of extracting more at those, even if the car doesnt like it.
If i would get the money to start my own F1 team, i would revive Arrows
You are reading too much into those words. He was not bashing Daniel.
The truth is, whether you are a fan of him or not, this has not been a great season for Daniel.
The win in Monza is his only redeeming achievement. How much value you put into that, is up to you. But the rest of the season has been very difficult.
Yep, exactly what I'm saying.
The whole discussion evolved from another discussion trying to explain why we're now behind Ferrari. To which I responded Sainz vs Ricciardo.
PhillipM wrote:I mean to be fair Norris deliberately didn't race him for the win, that shows just how much class Norris has to be honest.
I said it last year and I'll say it again, even here, with Mclaren fans, people seriously underestimated Norris and Sainz's talent.
I don’t think you can say Lando deliberately did not race Daniel for the race win.
Apart from the radio message halfway through with Lando saying should he just hold station, Lando having pace before that on Daniel, and both the team and Norris saying he did great by just making sure they brought a 1-2 home instead of risking a collision like the earlier one you mean?
He deliberately didn't race Daniel for the win. The team will tell you that. Norris will tell you that, Daniel will tell you that.
PhillipM wrote:I mean to be fair Norris deliberately didn't race him for the win, that shows just how much class Norris has to be honest.
I said it last year and I'll say it again, even here, with Mclaren fans, people seriously underestimated Norris and Sainz's talent.
I don’t think you can say Lando deliberately did not race Daniel for the race win.
Apart from the radio message halfway through with Lando saying should he just hold station, Lando having pace before that on Daniel, and both the team and Norris saying he did great by just making sure they brought a 1-2 home instead of risking a collision like the earlier one you mean?
He deliberately didn't race Daniel for the win. The team will tell you that. Norris will tell you that, Daniel will tell you that.
To be fair, Daniel also said he could go quicker, with your team mate behind you, why push? Of course Lando could have raced him, but it’s unlikely he’d have gotten past, highly unlikely.
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously.
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.
PhillipM wrote:I mean to be fair Norris deliberately didn't race him for the win, that shows just how much class Norris has to be honest.
I said it last year and I'll say it again, even here, with Mclaren fans, people seriously underestimated Norris and Sainz's talent.
I don’t think you can say Lando deliberately did not race Daniel for the race win.
Apart from the radio message halfway through with Lando saying should he just hold station, Lando having pace before that on Daniel, and both the team and Norris saying he did great by just making sure they brought a 1-2 home instead of risking a collision like the earlier one you mean?
He deliberately didn't race Daniel for the win. The team will tell you that. Norris will tell you that, Daniel will tell you that.
Let me list some details at what happened that day
Landos engineer tells him perez has DRS.
Lando on the radio then says "i need Daniel to pick up the pace he driving too slow."
So Lando gave a clear team order to pass on to Ric. Then Rics engineer got on the radio and gave him a direct order to pick up the pace which was to help Norris and he complied.
Ric at no stage got on the radio and said tell Norris to slow down and not overtake me. The only team order asking for help from either driver at Monza came direct from Lando not Ric. This fact is clear
Then Lando later himself asked when out of the DRS on the radio. "is it best for us to stay where i am" and his engineer basically agreed with him saying best for us to stay where you are repeating back exactly what lando himself suggested.
There was no direct team order to Lando anytime before this saying Lando do not overtake Ric so they were free to race. So Lando was racing at the restart, was free to race and had no team orders telling him not race until he himself suggested after at least 5 laps later when he was out of DRS not even close to making an overtake. These facts are also very clear.
Ric was basically doing exactly what he did with Max to Norris. Driving so slow, doing the bare minimum to bring the car home and not stress the tyres or engine or anything and take extra risk. lando tried for at least 5 laps with no team orders and could not get past. Max actually got closer to Ric than Norris did and even then Max was not even close to an overtake attempt.
Ric then picked up the pace something he never would have done if not for the Norris message which of course he obliged to help Mclaren bring home the 1,2
Otherwise Ric would have driven slow the entire race deliberately like he did with max earlier, So Ric compromised his ideal race strategy (which was driving like a snail it seems) he was following the entire race with Max, and sped up to help Norris and Mclaren secure the 1,2
Of course Lando and Ric at Monza I rate both 10 out of 10. Neither of them put a foot wrong that race. Incredible performance by both to bring home the 1st Mclaren 1,2 in a decade.
Max and Lando had close to zero chance of passing Ric on track, team orders or not.
“He deliberately didn't race Daniel for the win.” <---------- I will agree this is true somewhat but you conveniently left out the other supporting facts below I will number clearly from the summary above
1. Ric never requested any help from Norris on the radio. But Norris on the radio requested Ric speed up to help him as Perez was in DRS range and clearly Lando thought there was a chance of him being overtaken otherwise he would not have requested Ric speed up. So the Perez threat was real.
2. Norris had zero team orders for at least 5 laps after the restart and was free to race and was racing until Lando was out of DRS and Lando himself suggested on the radio to hold station.
3. Rics ideal race strategy at Monza seemed to be to deliberately drive as slow as possible all race with both Max and Norris behind so as to not stress the tyres, engine, and simultaneously frustrate the driver behind burning up their tyres in the dirty air. Ric only changed this snail driving race strategy when asked by team orders on the radio to speed up to help Norris, which he did immediately going 7 tenths quicker the following lap.
4. Ric set the fastest lap of the race which was quicker than Landos fastest lap.
Ayrton Senna: Pure driving, pure racing, that´s what makes me happy.
To be fair, Daniel also said he could go quicker, with your team mate behind you, why push? Of course Lando could have raced him, but it’s unlikely he’d have gotten past, highly unlikely.
Oh of course, but handing Daniel some sort of pass for being better than Norris in the second half of the season on the back of one win that they didn't race each other for because they didn't want to lose the 1-2 as per another teams collision on the same day, is rather a stretch, when you consider they deliberately settled for not racing each other that day. Given that gave him the extra points for the 'points' arguement and Norris literally just got screwed by a puncture after being well ahead of Daniel this weekend again.
That Dan never radio'd back for help or to ask Norris to stay behind, is neither here nor there, why would he, it'd be the worlds weirdest request and he'd be ridiculed for it.
It's easy enough to remove that race as an outlier because you know they held station and then look at the respective performance in the second half of the season and see there's not a whole lot of change. Daniel definately got a lot more comfortable with the car but that's a far stretch from him being better than Norris in the second half.
Last edited by PhillipM on 26 Nov 2021, 16:58, edited 2 times in total.
Yeah maybe, I mean I've been one of the big defenders of Dan since everyone was whining about him at the start of the season but classing him as better than Norris in the second half of the season?
Big stretch, but I've said all I want to say so I'll leave it at that.
To be fair, Daniel also said he could go quicker, with your team mate behind you, why push? Of course Lando could have raced him, but it’s unlikely he’d have gotten past, highly unlikely.
Oh of course, but handing Daniel some sort of pass for being better than Norris in the second half of the season on the back of one win that they didn't race each other for because they didn't want to lose the 1-2 as per another teams collision on the same day, is rather a stretch, when you consider they deliberately settled for not racing each other that day. Given that gave him the extra points for the 'points' arguement and Norris literally just got screwed by a puncture after being well ahead of Daniel this weekend again.
That Dan never radio'd back for help or to ask Norris to stay behind, is neither here nor there, why would he, it'd be the worlds weirdest request and he'd be ridiculed for it.
It's easy enough to remove that race as an outlier because you know they held station and then look at the respective performance in the second half of the season and see there's not a whole lot of change. Daniel definately got a lot more comfortable with the car but that's a far stretch from him being better than Norris in the second half.
Good points, I admit. But let’s also remember that Daniel did the really hard bit of getting ahead of Max on the dirty side and keeping him behind. The Red Bull was, on average, the faster race car. The McLaren had them covered on the straights, but if Daniel had made an error and Max went by, game over, he would have no chance of getting the place back on the road. Good to note that without Lewis and Max crashing, only one McLaren could have won that day, which was Daniel. Lewis actually overtook Lando, before then having a bad pit stop, if I’m not mistaken. So if we put things in perspective, Daniel had a much better race weekend than just finishing first, he even was comfortable enough ahead that he covered Leclerc who pitted under the safety car. That was one of Daniel’s most complete and mature drives.
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously.
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.
Oh it definitely was, I just don't really think you can hold up that one win as making him better than Norris this latter half of the season, that was an odd weekend by any account really when you look at the rest of the races recently.
How about if we agree that Norris has taken it to another level this year and really delivered for the team, whereas Daniel has struggled but still shown glimpses of brilliance?
