2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

[ArcticWolfie]

???
Why does someone on the public road who drives very close behind another receive a very, very high fine?!
Because one should never drive close behind another person, because you can run into him/her if that person suddenly brakes.
Here it is called tailgating and is forbidden.

lol

You just found the world’s silliest argument.

There are speed limits on public roads, maybe we should have those on circuits as well!

Ridiculous isn’t it. To try and compare driving on a public road and the regulations of doing so to a Formula 1 race where the point is to try and get as close as possible behind someone before trying to pass them.

Which is precisely why you DO NOT unexpectedly stamp on the brakes in an F1 race with a car close behind you and why it is so hugely frowned upon. It causes accidents and endangers people.

I always tailgate slow cars in the left lane... yes I'm an asshole, but I know my car's braking capabilities are much higher than the one in front of me. If you don't KNOW your car's braking capability (or your own...) don't tailgate, just don't

[Tim.Wright]

Why does someone on the public road who drives very close behind another receive a very, very high fine?!
Because one should never drive close behind another person, because you can run into him/her if that person suddenly brakes.
Here it is called tailgating and is forbidden.

Brake checking someone is a much more serious offence than tailgating in pretty much every jurisdiction I've lived in. It's classed as reckless driving and carries potential jail-time for offenders as opposed to a simple fine for tailgaing.

Tailgating increases the possibilty of a crash, but brake checking positively provokes one. As we saw yesterday.

[GrizzleBoy]

It’s interesting to see how much nationality plays into this. I’m a Dutch expat and my cousin is up in arms about this. He simply cannot understand why Verstappen got a penalty and Hamilton did not. I’m sure the commentary on Dutch TV plays into this as well, because it seems like much of the country doesn’t get it either.

I watched the whole thing on F1TV and I think Felipe Massa said it best on the post-race show.

Wasn't much commentary about it, the Dutch commentator couldn't believe his eyes. He reacted on Wolff's reaction instead, "does this mean Hamilton refused the overtake and thus counted as giving the position back?".

Not sure what Crofty and Brundle/Button had to say about this... normally I listen to the English F1TV stream but this time I did not.

Brundle who usually gushes over Max sounded very deflated and disappointed about Max's racing in general.

To quote Brundle:

"I think Verstappen has got to think about his driving standards. They were too much today," said Sky F1's Brundle on commentary.

He added: "There's aggressive, determined, feisty racing and then there's what we saw this evening, which was too much."

[rogazilla]

Go drive down the road two meter from the car infront at 50kmh and react to the stopping in a moment when there is no reason to.

The absolute logic of some.

Couple things to consider: VER does not know that HAM didn't get the message that he's letting him by. From the initial lift off, typically the other driver would have flew by and if HAM got the message, he would have gone by as soon as VER lifted. VER lifted and probably don't understand or wondering why HAM is not passing and started to brake and HAM still don't pass. Then you have DRS line and probably frustration at this point. I think not communicate to Merc first that RC is asking VER to give back position is probably the biggest issue.

You logic seems to imply that it's RCs fault MV jumped on the brakes when LH was right behind him. Lets not understate the jumping on the brakes as lifting, it wasn't. You seem to also suggest the issue is also the "strategic" intent and MV mis-use of the DRS line.

You also forget, MV weaving, taking the middle of the road, all of which divert from the norms following an instruction from RC. If anything it fits with what we've seen from MV before and not a RC issue.

Keep in mind, it wasn't jump on the brake as the only event. He lifted then brake and then brake more. Just putting it out there that if you were told to let the other driver by, you lift and drop 50kmh, you would assume the person behind should be flying by at this time. It didn't happen, so you brake some more and still no passing. All of these are happening in a few seconds. Give HAM the benefit of the doubt, he doesn't know what is happening and does not know what VER is doing.

[Wouter]

???
Why does someone on the public road who drives very close behind another receive a very, very high fine?!
Because one should never drive close behind another person, because you can run into him/her if that person suddenly brakes.
Here it is called tailgating and is forbidden.

lol

You just found the world’s silliest argument.

There are speed limits on public roads, maybe we should have those on circuits as well!

.
Ridiculous isn’t it.To try and compare driving on a public road and the regulations of doing so to a Formula 1 race where the point is to try and get as close as possible behind someone before trying to pass them.

Which is precisely why you DO NOT unexpectedly stamp on the brakes in an F1 race with a car close behind you and why it is so hugely frowned upon. It causes accidents and endangers people.

I reacted on @Dans79 "On and off the race track ......" Public road = off the racetrack, isn't it?
I wasn't talking about the racetrack. I wasn't comparing anything!
Is my English so bad to understand??

[Marty_Y]

All of these arguments are circular, the facts are undeniable, Max received 3 separate penalties (a grid penalty, 5 second penalty, 10 second penalty & 2 SL points).

His conduct was disgusting, his behaviour was disgraceful, his unsportsmanlike actions have no place in motor racing.

I just hope in future he is disqualified and not allowed to get away with it because of the "show", normally anyone who can't play by the rules and is a danger to other participants is banned.

[dans79]

I reacted on @Dans79 "On and off the race track ......" Public road = off the racetrack, isn't it?
I wasn't talking about the racetrack. I wasn't comparing anything!
Is my English so bad to understand??

I think your English was fine, but your analogy was bad!

[El Scorchio]

lol

You just found the world’s silliest argument.

There are speed limits on public roads, maybe we should have those on circuits as well!

Ridiculous isn’t it. To try and compare driving on a public road and the regulations of doing so to a Formula 1 race where the point is to try and get as close as possible behind someone before trying to pass them.

Which is precisely why you DO NOT unexpectedly stamp on the brakes in an F1 race with a car close behind you and why it is so hugely frowned upon. It causes accidents and endangers people.

I always tailgate slow cars in the left lane... yes I'm an asshole, but I know my car's braking capabilities are much higher than the one in front of me. If you don't KNOW your car's braking capability (or your own...) don't tailgate, just don't

In the context of a motor race, what you just said makes literally no sense. If tailgating is a no no in formula 1 racing then every driver in every race is braking the rules.

[El Scorchio]

lol

You just found the world’s silliest argument.

There are speed limits on public roads, maybe we should have those on circuits as well!

.
Ridiculous isn’t it.To try and compare driving on a public road and the regulations of doing so to a Formula 1 race where the point is to try and get as close as possible behind someone before trying to pass them.

Which is precisely why you DO NOT unexpectedly stamp on the brakes in an F1 race with a car close behind you and why it is so hugely frowned upon. It causes accidents and endangers people.

I reacted on @Dans79 "On and off the race track ......" Public road = off the racetrack, isn't it?
I wasn't talking about the racetrack. I wasn't comparing anything!
Is my English so bad to understand??

I can only assume it must be in this case. What were you trying to say?

[dans79]

I just hope in future he is disqualified and not allowed to get away with it because of the "show", normally anyone who can't play by the rules and is a danger to other participants is banned.

It's been a while since a driver got a race ban, Grosjean was the last driver to get one in 2012.

[henry]

Of course he did know ... if he actually didn't know he would have overtaken Verstappen. Verstappen could've a sudden failure... you won't hang around to find out would you??
He deliberately held back not to pass the DRS line and played dumbfounded, works much better to fool people.

breaktest worth of 2.6 G deacceleration ==> DSQ. there is no buts or ifs....

2.6g in an f1 car isn't much, they can easily create over 1g just lifting off the throttle. Over 5g full breaking.

I blame Masi personally.

The maximum deceleration they can achieve varies with speed because of the downforce and drag.

So the 5g deceleration only happens at about 300kph with 1g from drag and 4g from the braking system.

Verstappen was doing around 150kph at which speed 2.6g is pretty much the maximum that can be achieved.

[Incognito]

Reminder:-

- The Stewards have clearly stated that Verstappen brake tested Hamilton.
- Hamilton had no reason or requirement to overtake Verstappen whenever Verstappen demanded he should (Verstappen is the person under sanction, not Hamilton).
- Once he'd finished weaving and braking, Verstappen made no further attempt to let Hamilton past, instead accelerating away and trying to pull a gap from a car he was ordered to allow past.
- Hamilton has everything to lose in a collision, especially one that pits his fragile front wing against the back of Verstappen's car, and has a real potential to flip his Mercedes 'Webber-style'.

There's nothing complicated here.

Considering that brake checking is one of the most dangerous activities in open seat racing, all these attempt to muddy the waters are downright pathetic.

[zeph]

It’s interesting to see how much nationality plays into this. I’m a Dutch expat and my cousin is up in arms about this. He simply cannot understand why Verstappen got a penalty and Hamilton did not. I’m sure the commentary on Dutch TV plays into this as well, because it seems like much of the country doesn’t get it either.

I watched the whole thing on F1TV and I think Felipe Massa said it best on the post-race show.

Wasn't much commentary about it, the Dutch commentator couldn't believe his eyes. He reacted on Wolff's reaction instead, "does this mean Hamilton refused the overtake and thus counted as giving the position back?".

Not sure what Crofty and Brundle/Button had to say about this... normally I listen to the English F1TV stream but this time I did not.

The rest of the world is pretty unanimous about Verstappen’s culpability here, AFAICT.

Just about everybody agrees he has absolutely nailed it for most of the season, and when he is ahead he is damn near untouchable. But this weekend he was under pressure, and he did not respond well to it. It was a return to the old immature and petulant Max. He needs to get on top of that.

Mark Hughes is spot on, as usual: https://the-race.com/formula-1/mark-hug ... -the-edge/

[ArcticWolfie]

Ridiculous isn’t it. To try and compare driving on a public road and the regulations of doing so to a Formula 1 race where the point is to try and get as close as possible behind someone before trying to pass them.

Which is precisely why you DO NOT unexpectedly stamp on the brakes in an F1 race with a car close behind you and why it is so hugely frowned upon. It causes accidents and endangers people.

I always tailgate slow cars in the left lane... yes I'm an asshole, but I know my car's braking capabilities are much higher than the one in front of me. If you don't KNOW your car's braking capability (or your own...) don't tailgate, just don't

In the context of a motor race, what you just said makes literally no sense. If tailgating is a no no in formula 1 racing then every driver in every race is braking the rules.

It does... you only tailgate because you know what you and your front driver are doing. If you don't (don't know your capabilities) you don't. And yes mistakes tend to happen, but there was no reason for Hamilton to tailgate Verstappen unless he knew what Verstappen was doing (he didn't want to go over the DRS line). That's why Hamilton deserved the penalty more than Verstappen in my opinion.

And I'm going to quote this one from motorsports.com:

[nimoraca]

Just looking at some of the overtakes of the backmakers in that same part of the track. The backmakers just slightly lift and move to the side. That is all that is needed. No need to brake at all and no need to move from right to the middle as the other car approaches. But I guess that is not "strategically" letting them by.