2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

[NathanOlder]

Of course he did know ... if he actually didn't know he would have overtaken Verstappen. Verstappen could've a sudden failure... you won't hang around to find out would you??
He deliberately held back not to pass the DRS line and played dumbfounded, works much better to fool people.

breaktest worth of 2.6 G deacceleration ==> DSQ. there is no buts or ifs....

2.6g in an f1 car isn't much, they can easily create over 1g just lifting off the throttle. Over 5g full breaking.

I blame Masi personally.

as i just replied to the other guy, 2.4g is near the limit at those speeds. to pull 5G you need the downforce at 200mph to achieve that. You can't pull 5G braking at 80mph for example.

[ringo]

Yep so he slammed the brakes as shown by the HUD. He has not reason to be slamming the brakes on a straight to let someone by if you see them directly behind you in the mirror. Pure brake test and he should have received a 20 place grid penalty at least.

[Fulcrum]

The one thing I cannot fathom is Lewis' positioning. Why did he converge to a point directly behind Verstappen rather than hugging one or the other side of the track?

[dans79]

don't make me laugh, drivers than come in first corner with 250km/h and such a huge traffic and manage to pass it untouched now have problems on straight with one car letting them pass

Hamilton had no idea what Verstappen was doing or why. You're looking at it as an outsider with all of the information available to you.

so many times leading driver had a problem with car and slow down and driver behind would just go by, and now 7 time wdc was confused so he slowed down and followed car in front few meters behind, lol

So many times in the past the driver doing the passing didn't have to worry about the car he was passing trying to take him out! As this very thread shows several people are perfectly OK with it which is disturbing to say the least.

[NathanOlder]

The one thing I cannot fathom is Lewis' positioning. Why did he converge to a point directly behind Verstappen rather than hugging one or the other side of the track?

Maybe he knew exactly what Max was trying to do, So by being directly behind Max, it meant Max had no way of allowing Lewis past before the DRS line. If Lewis followed Max for another 100m or so, he would be right behind Max WITH drs so a pass would be very easy.

[Marty_Y]

Has anyone got any insight about why Alonso pitted for soft tyres and went for fastest lap when he was outside the top ten and wouldn't get the point for it, was it just to stop Lewis from getting it?

[e30ernest]

you are trolling, look a video from above, and his camera on mercedes is on left side and lens is making distortion of what is seen, so sorry

The camera is barely off the centreline, and the lens distortion is even across the field of view. You are the troll here.

please look this video and then comment, thank you

https://youtu.be/TLGAeCGl8R4

Now that I've seen it again, it's even more clear that Max was weaving ever so slightly and then slams on the brakes just as Lewis comes close. You can even see in Max' onboard him weaving his wheel left and right and then left as he was braking. You can also see on his helmet he was checking his mirrors. He knew exactly where Lewis was.

[PlatinumZealot]

The one thing I cannot fathom is Lewis' positioning. Why did he converge to a point directly behind Verstappen rather than hugging one or the other side of the track?

Max made a trajectory to the left and slammed the brakes. Lewis did not know whether it was a saftey car or yellow flag.

Max slowed so much that the Marshall waved a yellow flag for a second.

Lewis of course just didn't know what was happening until it was too late. He thought Max was slowing for the DRS at racing speed but not to slam on the brakes! Which is of course against the rules. (causing a collision, erratic movements or brake check whatever you wanna call it).

It's pretty much a slam dunk and I don't know why we are still talking about it. The camera barepy showed the the midfield this race, can we talk about them instead?

[Fulcrum]

The one thing I cannot fathom is Lewis' positioning. Why did he converge to a point directly behind Verstappen rather than hugging one or the other side of the track?

Maybe he knew exactly what Max was trying to do, So by being directly behind Max, it meant Max had no way of allowing Lewis past before the DRS line. If Lewis followed Max for another 100m or so, he would be right behind Max WITH drs so a pass would be very easy.

I think Hamilton knew what he was doing, to a point.

- tailgate to prevent the pass prior to the DRS line.
- tailgate to erode the time advantage Verstappen had over Ocon and Bottas, preventing a pit stop.
- tailgate to make it more difficult to defend, as Verstappen would have to watch both mirrors.

Most of the above eventuates, as well as Verstappen losing the plot.

The last component is the reason I asked the question though. Hamilton doesn't trust Verstappen, and I wouldn't either, so why run the risk of getting so close? This feels like a misjudgement on Hamilton's part, bearing in mind a penalty would be applied were a pass not to occur.

[e30ernest]

The one thing I cannot fathom is Lewis' positioning. Why did he converge to a point directly behind Verstappen rather than hugging one or the other side of the track?

Maybe he knew exactly what Max was trying to do, So by being directly behind Max, it meant Max had no way of allowing Lewis past before the DRS line. If Lewis followed Max for another 100m or so, he would be right behind Max WITH drs so a pass would be very easy.

I think Hamilton knew what he was doing, to a point.

- tailgate to prevent the pass prior to the DRS line.
- tailgate to erode the time advantage Verstappen had over Ocon and Bottas, preventing a pit stop.
- tailgate to make it more difficult to defend, as Verstappen would have to watch both mirrors.

Most of the above eventuates, as well as Verstappen losing the plot.

The last component is the reason I asked the question though. Hamilton doesn't trust Verstappen, and I wouldn't either, so why run the risk of getting so close? This feels like a misjudgement on Hamilton's part, bearing in mind a penalty would be applied were a pass not to occur.

So I don't think Hamilton had the overall knowledge of the race to be able to think of bringing Ocon and Bottas into Verstappen's pit window by slowing him down. I agree he did not want to pass before the DRS line.

I do think it is possible that since the team did not tell him Max was going to let him pass, he decided to follow Max in case there were debris on the track. I think this is the reason why he followed the path Max was taking. With the incidents on the track so far, and the debris that were being spread around it, Lewis was probably on edge too.

This wasn't really a straight (it had a slight bend to the left) and how low Lewis is on the ground, his visibility would be limited so the safe option in this case is to follow the car ahead. Remember, Max would not slow down under normal circumstances just to let Lewis pass (DRS zone upcoming or not). It is way more likely that at the start of the incident at least, Lewis decided to follow Max because it was the safer option to do.

So why did he follow that closely?

Not to be left farther behind should Max suddenly accelerate. It's just like starting the race after a SC. You stay as close as possible to the car in front so you can follow it down the line. This is a racetrack and this is a race and cars driving on the limit on a track are either accelerating or decelerating at specific points of the track. You do not expect cars to be randomly braking (like on normal roads) so it is generally safe to follow closely.

This is why Max was penalized. He braked at a section of the track where he shouldn't be braking. It was unsafe, and it was right for the stewards to penalize him for that.

[e30ernest]

Deleted double post.

[Fulcrum]

Maybe he knew exactly what Max was trying to do, So by being directly behind Max, it meant Max had no way of allowing Lewis past before the DRS line. If Lewis followed Max for another 100m or so, he would be right behind Max WITH drs so a pass would be very easy.

I think Hamilton knew what he was doing, to a point.

- tailgate to prevent the pass prior to the DRS line.
- tailgate to erode the time advantage Verstappen had over Ocon and Bottas, preventing a pit stop.
- tailgate to make it more difficult to defend, as Verstappen would have to watch both mirrors.

Most of the above eventuates, as well as Verstappen losing the plot.

The last component is the reason I asked the question though. Hamilton doesn't trust Verstappen, and I wouldn't either, so why run the risk of getting so close? This feels like a misjudgement on Hamilton's part, bearing in mind a penalty would be applied were a pass not to occur.

So I don't think Hamilton had the overall knowledge of the race to be able to think of bringing Ocon and Bottas into Verstappen's pit window by slowing him down. I agree he did not want to pass before the DRS line.

I do think it is possible that since the team did not tell him Max was going to let him pass, he decided to follow Max in case there were debris on the track. I think this is the reason why he followed the path Max was taking. With the incidents on the track so far, and the debris that were being spread around it, Lewis was probably on edge too.

This wasn't really a straight (it had a slight bend to the left) and how low Lewis is on the ground, his visibility would be limited so the safe option in this case is to follow the car ahead. Remember, Max would not slow down under normal circumstances just to let Lewis pass (DRS zone upcoming or not). It is way more likely that at the start of the incident at least, Lewis decided to follow Max because it was the safer option to do.

So why did he follow that closely?

Not to be left farther behind should Max suddenly accelerate. It's just like starting the race after a SC. You stay as close as possible to the car in front so you can follow it down the line. This is a racetrack and this is a race and cars driving on the limit on a track are either accelerating or decelerating at specific points of the track. You do not expect cars to be randomly braking (like on normal roads) so it is generally safe to follow closely.

This is why Max was penalized. He braked at a section of the track where he shouldn't be braking. It was unsafe, and it was right for the stewards to penalize him for that.

If Max were to have accelerated away without eventuating a pass, a time penalty would accrue anyway. Alternatively, a repeat of this exercise on the next lap.

Given everything we've seen Verstappen capable of so far, it generally isn't safe to be in his proximity, why risk being so close to him? That's the part that feels like a misjudgement.

[e30ernest]

Given everything we've seen Verstappen capable of so far, it generally isn't safe to be in his proximity, why risk being so close to him? That's the part that feels like a misjudgement.

If you're in Lewis' shoes though, you'll have to manage the risk. In that circumstance, the chances of Max actually braking that hard should have been very low. I emphasize that because he obviously did, but normally, no driver would have done that.

So you play the percentages. The percentage of a driver in front of you braking that hard on a flat out portion of the track is unlikely so you assume they would not brake. If Lewis were afraid of taking the risk to get close to Max, then we wouldn't have much of a competition between them, and Max' bullying would have won out.

[tpe]

Let's see if this is the post that will bring us to the 100 pages!
Anyway, I hope that people take off their LH or MV glasses and for onc6 see clearly what the FIA decision say.
Both drivers at fault, MV predominantly thus he got a penalty.
Simple isn't it?

Why people try to understand what they were doing? None of them will openly admit what they did.
Now, let's try to enjoy the last race of this ERA. Next year we will have new cars.

[proteus]

On and off the race track the person who jabs the brakes is always the one that is held liable.

It was not as blatant. Why would a 7time world champion who is in F1 for 14 years decide that it is a good idea to close almost to a point blank behind a slowing car not even knowing why was he slowing down. Imagine Max having a bursting engine and Lewis cruising behind to get boiling hot oil thrown into his face...for a very spatial type of driver, he did quite a mistake in that moment.

Why didn't he move off the racing line? Find me another example where the driver that must give way dawdles in the middle of the track?

He gave mixed signals at best, at worst he had malicious intentions.

What's shocking is that for a segment of the fans it's all fair game because he can't win on just terms. Woefully illogical!

Just terms would be if they would have equal cars, but Mercedes did something extradionary to make their car faster .3 to.5sec on the straight without DRS. He did the only thing he could with late braking and squeezing himself alongside. By your standards he should just let him by without any fighting at all, like midfielders are doing it.