2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

[WaikeCU]

This is all about the multiple VSC we had previous to this incident unless LH was trying to avoid overtaking before the DRS detection zone.
From my POV this is both sides losing their calm resulting in these kind of situations. Reminds me of 2007 the way FA and LH was fighting and we all know what happened in the end someone else became a champion.
Here in 2021 both LH and MV should consider themselves lucky that they do not have a 3rd challenger.

They can still do something crazy in last race and be DSQ from championship, Bottas wins the title [-o<

I can only see one of them doing anything crazy. The other one needs to actually finish the race, so he's going to be trying to avoid all that.

I just feel like marshalling/stewarding will be so inconsistent again just to make it a show until the end.

"SC car deployed because of a plastic bag on track"

[Jambier]

This is all about the multiple VSC we had previous to this incident unless LH was trying to avoid overtaking before the DRS detection zone.
From my POV this is both sides losing their calm resulting in these kind of situations. Reminds me of 2007 the way FA and LH was fighting and we all know what happened in the end someone else became a champion.
Here in 2021 both LH and MV should consider themselves lucky that they do not have a 3rd challenger.

They can still do something crazy in last race and be DSQ from championship, Bottas wins the title [-o<

I can only see one of them doing anything crazy. The other one needs to actually finish the race, so he's going to be trying to avoid all that.

Of course, the one desperate to see his chance to become world champion flying away because of an inferior car.
But that also means he got nothing to lose and will try something crazy

[rb88]

Depends how soft the spectators and drivers became. Years back this might end up with a fist fight and possible mutual respect after that or atleast avoidance. But in this tender times where even an improper sneeze might be ofensive, this wont happen and thats why them both are reckless as they are. Even Lewis is not spotless in this, no matter how much are you trying to find excuses for him. And yes, Max acts out of desperation and i can understand that, since my blood is also red and i can feel his pain. Was Senna any different? Lots of incident happened troughout his whole career when he pushed to the last limit - even Brundle stated that it often went to a point where one of the drivers would not be able to get trough.

I’m not making any excuses for Hamilton. Not that he needs any made for him from yesterday anyway.

I fail to see how the fact you don’t seem to like the state of the world/F1 today in any way qualifies how Verstappen chose to behave yesterday. It’s ok to drive like that if you have a punch up afterwards?!

Lewis simply lacks character and thats why this is happening. He should have gone to Max face to face and set him straight. Something what strongly charactered drivers did in the past (Schumacher, Piquet, Senna, Hunt and many others) and not to hide behind Wolf and being afraid to even look at the direction of Max. Vettel and Rosberg were much easier to crack than Max aparently.

No, Lewis is mature and not a spoilt and verbally/emotionally abused (by his father) kid like Max is. He knows being the better one of the two in the argument is what he wants his legacy to be. There is absolutely zero pride in being the guy who ends up in a fistfight with the other one. Winning is not even granting the other guy a look because you know you're the one who's right.

[rb88]

Actually, this video will tell you all you need to know why this is ending up as it is and tells you all you need to know about the mindset of these two.



It's telling that Verstappen can't handle being unlapped because he thinks it's "HIS CORNER", and subsequently crashes - and subsequently goes into a fistfight with the guy. Hamilton wouldn't even have given being unlapped a second thought, and would've won.

Max has not grown at all since that incident and it shows.

[El Scorchio]

Actually, this video will tell you all you need to know why this is ending up as it is and tells you all you need to know about the mindset of these two.



It's telling that Verstappen can't handle being unlapped because he thinks it's "HIS CORNER", and subsequently crashes - and subsequently goes into a fistfight with the guy. Hamilton wouldn't even have given being unlapped a second thought, and would've won.

Max has not grown at all since that incident and it shows.

Been a long time since I saw that. It's crazy how he doesn't just let him go past with acres of track on the outside. Just wanted the line and turned in on him. Silverstone, anyone?? Even if they were fighting for the lead that's a dumb move. But with a car unlapping themself it's absolutely insane.

Really, it's just Ocon going 'full max' as they say. And you can't punish someone for that.

[El Scorchio]

They can still do something crazy in last race and be DSQ from championship, Bottas wins the title [-o<

I can only see one of them doing anything crazy. The other one needs to actually finish the race, so he's going to be trying to avoid all that.

Of course, the one desperate to see his chance to become world champion flying away because of an inferior car.
But that also means he got nothing to lose and will try something crazy

And you think he would be justified by doing something 'crazy'?

[Jambier]

I can only see one of them doing anything crazy. The other one needs to actually finish the race, so he's going to be trying to avoid all that.

Of course, the one desperate to see his chance to become world champion flying away because of an inferior car.
But that also means he got nothing to lose and will try something crazy

And you think he would be justified by doing something 'crazy'?

No but I understand him.

Kid raised in the hope to become champion, lives for that. He have got this chance, once in his lifetime.
Maybe the only one, we don't know.

How to keep head cool with that ?

[proteus]

Schumacher cheated, Piquet was a nasty little bully who even insulted his team mate's wife to try to get an advantage, Senna cheated by deliberately crashing out Prost in 1990, Hunt used to throw up before races because he was so nervous.

These weren't prime examples of pure manhood or whatever you think they were.

Lewis lied in Australia 09, few years later said that FIA is on to him because of the color of his skin and etc....so what is your point exactly and who was talking about manhood? I said character, guts and ability to stand up for himself.

By far i am not trying to rant about him, but honestly i see him too weak in terms of personal interactions. If he was treated wrong on track he should go to Max and say it...and not to speak about it in third person, implying about someone else wrong doing.

This is F1, not WWE. Talking smack downs etc., is not what is done.

Say Lewis goes to Max and says "don't be so aggressive on track, you'll just cause accidents" and Max tells him to "f off" etc. Then what? Go out back and have a bit of a punch up? That worked well for Senna, didn't it? 2 race ban. Yeah, that's how you win championships - by sitting in the grandstand watching everyone else race.

If Lewis tells Max face-to-face to stop being so silly on track, Max is going to smirk at him and then walk off. Max will then just do it on track again anyway. In fact, he'll probably do it more because he thinks he's gotten under Lewis's skin.

So, no, going and doing it face-to-face isn't going to happen because that's not how grown up people behave.

It's not the job of the drivers to police driver behaviour on track. It's the job of the FIA and their appointed stewards. Unfortunately, there is a move to "let them race" which has resulted in Max doing ridiculous moves on track with no fear of reprisals. And Sunday's race and the silliness that ensued is a direct result of that. Had Max been treated the same as other drivers - no weaving in the braking zone, etc., - then he'd be a better driver in wheel-to-wheel racing. But he isn't - he's just a dive bomber that has been allowed to get away with it.

If someone is dangerous, then he should speak up loud and clear and not hide in the back. It is his life afterall. Masi is uncapable of handling things aparently, so it is more or less his job to speak up

[El Scorchio]

Of course, the one desperate to see his chance to become world champion flying away because of an inferior car.
But that also means he got nothing to lose and will try something crazy

And you think he would be justified by doing something 'crazy'?

No but I understand him.

Kid raised in the hope to become champion, lives for that. He have got this chance, once in his lifetime.
Maybe the only one, we don't know.

How to keep head cool with that ?

By acting like a responsible adult and controlling his emotions. Which must be hard when you consider how his inner circle behaves, but it's what he's paid millions of pounds to do and he should be doing at all times and rise above doing what he's doing.

[Phil]

He asked "why move across to the left about a second after". 5 seconds is a lot of track to cover going 250+ kph. Looked like the before shot was coming into the turn.

here is the track just before the accident. Looked like there was room to pass. I personally don't care either way. I'm not saying it wasn't an a-hole move by Verstappen, but Hamilton is not as innocent in all this either.

https://dc769.4shared.com/img/Nagpmyppi ... -crash.jpg

What the still images fail to show, is the context of the situation, that being;

Max was leading the championship by 8 points going into this race with 9 wins. A win would effectively increase the points gap for the last race to 14-16 points (depending on who gets the fastest lap point). With one more race, this practically hands the WDC to Max, as a win by Lewis would mean Max could finish 4th, if not 5th and still win the championship.

More importantly, a DNF for both Lewis and Max in Jeddah would keep the points gap at 8 points, also ensuring Max wins the WDC if he finishes 2nd.

Of course, Hamilton winning Jeddah nullfies that advantage and the last race becomes a must win for either unless neither of them score which again hands it to Verstappen.

Then we arrive at Jeddah and there are 3 incidents during the race before we even get to the brake-test;

Lap 15
The first restart after the red flag when Hamilton gets a better start and has the high ground going into T1 and Verstappen passes around the outside off the track and then rejoins at an impossible angle forcing Hamilton to avoid a collision (which then also gives Ocon the run on Hamilton). Verstappen here engages in a very dangerous maneuver, rejoins in an unsafe manner and is risking potential damage by cutting in ahead of Hamilton.

Lap 17
Second restart after the 2nd red flag, when he goes to the inside and squeezes through:

Check their trajectories and also bear in mind that the car on the inside has the steepest angle to make the turn, thus requires a lower speed to safely make the corner while also leaving room for the other two drivers ahead. With no regard to this, Verstappen brakes last and takes the corner leaving Hamilton again in a sandwich and little options to avoid a collision. You can call it balsy, brilliant, but clearly, Verstappen is risking damage by going into a gap with speed that doesn't allow room for the other cars knowing full well that both cars to his right are going to turn into him. This is no different than "going in hot" or into gap that is closing. A driver not wanting to risk his car would never have done such a maneuver as it's pretty much a guarantee crash waiting to happen.

Lap 37
The incident that led to him having to give back the position in the first place - again, Hamilton has the overlap and speed differential, is on the outside and ahead and can carry more speed into T1, yet Verstappen goes in "hot" with no hope of ever making that corner and plows straight through - again with Hamilton having to protect his car and avoiding collision. This isn't racing, this is outright dangerous driving and clearly risking again his own and his opponents car.

Now fast forward a lap forward when out of the blue in a high speed left hander, Verstappen decelerates while making erratic movements, forcing Hamilton again to brake and lose his momentum and then right behind him while occupying the center of the track, taps the brakes.

If - again - the intentions were sincere, why not stay on the far right of the corner? Tapping the brakes wasn't even necessary too to let someone by. I stand 100% behind my assessment that Hamilton had no clue what was happening and the intentions of Verstappen wanting (or being ordered) to let him by. The erratic movements gave him no choice but to completely slow to the speed of Verstappen. At that point, there was zero reason to assume that Verstappen would even tap the brakes to seek the collision. I'm baffled some would even try to justify these kind of actions.

I'm shocked this wasn't an immediate disqualification from the race. He (or anyone else) would deserve nothing less than that.

[Just_a_fan]

Lewis lied in Australia 09, few years later said that FIA is on to him because of the color of his skin and etc....so what is your point exactly and who was talking about manhood? I said character, guts and ability to stand up for himself.

By far i am not trying to rant about him, but honestly i see him too weak in terms of personal interactions. If he was treated wrong on track he should go to Max and say it...and not to speak about it in third person, implying about someone else wrong doing.

This is F1, not WWE. Talking smack downs etc., is not what is done.

Say Lewis goes to Max and says "don't be so aggressive on track, you'll just cause accidents" and Max tells him to "f off" etc. Then what? Go out back and have a bit of a punch up? That worked well for Senna, didn't it? 2 race ban. Yeah, that's how you win championships - by sitting in the grandstand watching everyone else race.

If Lewis tells Max face-to-face to stop being so silly on track, Max is going to smirk at him and then walk off. Max will then just do it on track again anyway. In fact, he'll probably do it more because he thinks he's gotten under Lewis's skin.

So, no, going and doing it face-to-face isn't going to happen because that's not how grown up people behave.

It's not the job of the drivers to police driver behaviour on track. It's the job of the FIA and their appointed stewards. Unfortunately, there is a move to "let them race" which has resulted in Max doing ridiculous moves on track with no fear of reprisals. And Sunday's race and the silliness that ensued is a direct result of that. Had Max been treated the same as other drivers - no weaving in the braking zone, etc., - then he'd be a better driver in wheel-to-wheel racing. But he isn't - he's just a dive bomber that has been allowed to get away with it.

If someone is dangerous, then he should speak up loud and clear and not hide in the back. It is his life afterall. Masi is uncapable of handling things aparently, so it is more or less his job to speak up

He is speaking up. In public. Other drivers aren't happy either. But sadly, "it's for the show" is the mantra and if the people that run the thing think it's good TV then they'll let it go on. That it actually is a bit embarrassing and makes F1 look a bit silly seems to be beyond them. Bumper car drivers, sprint races that aren't races, the list goes on.

[Just_a_fan]

Actually, this video will tell you all you need to know why this is ending up as it is and tells you all you need to know about the mindset of these two.



It's telling that Verstappen can't handle being unlapped because he thinks it's "HIS CORNER", and subsequently crashes - and subsequently goes into a fistfight with the guy. Hamilton wouldn't even have given being unlapped a second thought, and would've won.

Max has not grown at all since that incident and it shows.

Exactly. It sums up Max perfectly. As Hamilton said "you had more to lose than him". Max doesn't seem to understand that other people even exist or that they will do things that aren't in his interests. It shows a person that has been brought up in a certain way and is not being helped by others who should be helping him - Horner and Marko for example. He's a divo surrounded by yes men.

[rifrafs2kees]

This is all about the multiple VSC we had previous to this incident unless LH was trying to avoid overtaking before the DRS detection zone.
From my POV this is both sides losing their calm resulting in these kind of situations. Reminds me of 2007 the way FA and LH was fighting and we all know what happened in the end someone else became a champion.
Here in 2021 both LH and MV should consider themselves lucky that they do not have a 3rd challenger.

3 or more close challengers would've actually hurt max trust me. He'll be losing points "skirmishing" with all the top brass.

[rifrafs2kees]

Watching that GP and the antics on track, it was as if I was looking at a junior category inexperienced driver doing everything to just to be ahead of a rival, whether that's within or far beyond what the rulebook says.

Just as if one has skipped a lot of race classes and jumped from one end of the junior categories into F1.

Oh wait...

[Laserguru]

Why is there so much speculation on Max crashing Hamilton out of the race? There are a number of examples where Hamilton crashes other drivers out of contention, eventually even taking the race win on occasion, no such history excists in Max’ case where only Monaco 2015 comes to mind. Even then he mostly endangered himself by pushing it to the limit where as for Lewis, well Silverstone was typical for him and reminded me of Barcelona 2016. More so Toto expressed in multiple occasions that if he can’t win he does everything to make the other team lose where RBR refers to their own strength. Same for Hamilton, it’s always they are so fast versus Max’ we lack speed. External versus internal focus. Summing it up I would say it is more likely Lewis will crash out Max by intention, inspired by Toto and tempted by his own ego or similar mindgames or misjudgment causing his previous crashes, overshouting everyone they are not to blame, whereas Max is more likely to drive into Lewis by accident as result of an overly aggressive offensive or defensive move, stupidly resulting in a dnf or penalty for himself, calling for hard racing.