2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

[Just_a_fan]

No. 3.5m I think is impossible unless they really sit the driver up like a road car position. Or the engine is hanging behind the rear axle.

Yeah, that was my view. One could make the tub strong enough, of course, to allow the driver to stick forward, but there's always going to be that accident that shears the nose off.

At the moment the drivers feet have to be behind the front axle line and at least 300mm behind the front bulkhead of the tub. Those regs would not change I think ever.

Agreed.

[jjn9128]

Agreed.

Just thinking about WEC where there are length restrictions, that's gone up from 4.65m to 5m in the "hypercar" rulebook, both with a max wheelbase of 3.15m. Even F4 cars have to have a wheelbase between 2.75--2.95m and F3 cars 2.8--3.0m. The Formula E car is 5.2m long.

Maybe we oldies just have to accept race cars are long these days...

[Just_a_fan]

Agreed.

Just thinking about WEC where there are length restrictions, that's gone up from 4.65m to 5m in the "hypercar" rulebook, both with a max wheelbase of 3.15m. Even F4 cars have to have a wheelbase between 2.75--2.95m and F3 cars 2.8--3.0m. The Formula E car is 5.2m long.

Maybe we oldies just have to accept race cars are long these days...

It's no different to the growth of road cars, it seems to me. Look at a current issue saloon car or hatchback and compare it with the same type of car from 20 or 30 years ago. They're just massive, and often with packaging that doesn't give that much more room to the occupants. Much of it, as with racing cars, is safety related with additional structures and space being provided between the occupants and any impact point.

Look at a current F1 tub and compare with that of the MP4/1 and the old original is just tiny in comparison.

MP4/1:

[jjn9128]

It's no different to the growth of road cars, it seems to me. Look at a current issue saloon car or hatchback and compare it with the same type of car from 20 or 30 years ago. They're just massive, and often with packaging that doesn't give that much more room to the occupants. Much of it, as with racing cars, is safety related with additional structures and space being provided between the occupants and any impact point.

Look at a current F1 tub and compare with that of the MP4/1 and the old original is just tiny in comparison.

MP4/1:
https://www.nobraking.com/wp-content/up ... K-edit.jpg

Or the FW07s that were at Saudi, they were clown car tiny.

[OO7]

Agreed.

Just thinking about WEC where there are length restrictions, that's gone up from 4.65m to 5m in the "hypercar" rulebook, both with a max wheelbase of 3.15m. Even F4 cars have to have a wheelbase between 2.75--2.95m and F3 cars 2.8--3.0m. The Formula E car is 5.2m long.

Maybe we oldies just have to accept race cars are long these days...

It's no different to the growth of road cars, it seems to me. Look at a current issue saloon car or hatchback and compare it with the same type of car from 20 or 30 years ago. They're just massive, and often with packaging that doesn't give that much more room to the occupants. Much of it, as with racing cars, is safety related with additional structures and space being provided between the occupants and any impact point.

Look at a current F1 tub and compare with that of the MP4/1 and the old original is just tiny in comparison.

MP4/1:
https://www.nobraking.com/wp-content/up ... K-edit.jpg

Gordon Murray spoke about the increase in size of modern cars and safety wasn't a reason he used.

[Zynerji]

Just thinking about WEC where there are length restrictions, that's gone up from 4.65m to 5m in the "hypercar" rulebook, both with a max wheelbase of 3.15m. Even F4 cars have to have a wheelbase between 2.75--2.95m and F3 cars 2.8--3.0m. The Formula E car is 5.2m long.

Maybe we oldies just have to accept race cars are long these days...

It's no different to the growth of road cars, it seems to me. Look at a current issue saloon car or hatchback and compare it with the same type of car from 20 or 30 years ago. They're just massive, and often with packaging that doesn't give that much more room to the occupants. Much of it, as with racing cars, is safety related with additional structures and space being provided between the occupants and any impact point.

Look at a current F1 tub and compare with that of the MP4/1 and the old original is just tiny in comparison.

MP4/1:
https://www.nobraking.com/wp-content/up ... K-edit.jpg

Gordon Murray spoke about the increase in size of modern cars and safety wasn't a reason he used.

It's for the same reason Karens drive SUVs.

Strategic imbalance caused by lots of hot air!

[Stu]

transverse engine and gearbox

Yes, would help. Would it still be enough to make a car 3.5m long and not have the driver sticking out at the front (albeit in a carbon tub)?

No. 3.5m I think is impossible unless they really sit the driver up like a road car position. Or the engine is hanging behind the rear axle.

They would offset the driver and drive-train and put them alongside each other (low MoI).
The driver position is an interesting one, there has been research conducted (by the FIA) that shows a more upright position results in less potential physical injury to the driver (spinal, primarily) than the lay-down position currently used. Enough conclusions were drawn to re-write position regulations for LMP & GT-type cars (which included adding roof panels to aid extraction). With such a strong driver-safety aspect , I’m amazed that the FIA didn’t insist on the same for F1 (& other single-seat categories), they did it with the Halo.

[Stu]

It's no different to the growth of road cars, it seems to me. Look at a current issue saloon car or hatchback and compare it with the same type of car from 20 or 30 years ago. They're just massive, and often with packaging that doesn't give that much more room to the occupants. Much of it, as with racing cars, is safety related with additional structures and space being provided between the occupants and any impact point.

Look at a current F1 tub and compare with that of the MP4/1 and the old original is just tiny in comparison.

MP4/1:
https://www.nobraking.com/wp-content/up ... K-edit.jpg

Or the FW07s that were at Saudi, they were clown car tiny.

But. Just. Right.

[Stu]

Just thinking about WEC where there are length restrictions, that's gone up from 4.65m to 5m in the "hypercar" rulebook, both with a max wheelbase of 3.15m. Even F4 cars have to have a wheelbase between 2.75--2.95m and F3 cars 2.8--3.0m. The Formula E car is 5.2m long.

Maybe we oldies just have to accept race cars are long these days...

It's no different to the growth of road cars, it seems to me. Look at a current issue saloon car or hatchback and compare it with the same type of car from 20 or 30 years ago. They're just massive, and often with packaging that doesn't give that much more room to the occupants. Much of it, as with racing cars, is safety related with additional structures and space being provided between the occupants and any impact point.

Look at a current F1 tub and compare with that of the MP4/1 and the old original is just tiny in comparison.

MP4/1:
https://www.nobraking.com/wp-content/up ... K-edit.jpg

Gordon Murray spoke about the increase in size of modern cars and safety wasn't a reason he used.

What reasoning did he give? Or do you mean F1 cars? That is all about floor area and airflow attachment. Passenger cars ARE about expanding the depth of the safety cell.

[Just_a_fan]

Just thinking about WEC where there are length restrictions, that's gone up from 4.65m to 5m in the "hypercar" rulebook, both with a max wheelbase of 3.15m. Even F4 cars have to have a wheelbase between 2.75--2.95m and F3 cars 2.8--3.0m. The Formula E car is 5.2m long.

Maybe we oldies just have to accept race cars are long these days...

It's no different to the growth of road cars, it seems to me. Look at a current issue saloon car or hatchback and compare it with the same type of car from 20 or 30 years ago. They're just massive, and often with packaging that doesn't give that much more room to the occupants. Much of it, as with racing cars, is safety related with additional structures and space being provided between the occupants and any impact point.

Look at a current F1 tub and compare with that of the MP4/1 and the old original is just tiny in comparison.

MP4/1:
https://www.nobraking.com/wp-content/up ... K-edit.jpg

Gordon Murray spoke about the increase in size of modern cars and safety wasn't a reason he used.

Gordon says you don't need to make it bigger to create safety. But if you're selling a £10k hatchback, you're doing just that. Gordon does it with expensive materials such as carbon tubs, but they're not really practical outside of low volume stuff. Need to improve crash protection in a cheap steel hatchback? Add some length to the front and create a longer crush zone. That's what they do.

[Schippke]

https://twitter.com/ChrisMedlandF1/stat ... wRqEA&s=19

I wonder if that figure is in general or more-so related to tracks with high-speed corners and straights... since from what I've been able to gather, the cars should still be massive quick in the majority of medium-high speed corners and a bit faster on the straights with overall less drag... but meant to be a bit more clumsy/unpredictable at low speeds.

Regardless, got to give credit to these teams... meant to be 2-3 seconds off the pace and still claw it back with a massive set of regulation changes within under a second. Imagine the development battle over the next few seasons too... they'll easily exceed that without too much hassle!

[mzso]

They should also limit the car length to 4.5 metres.

FTFY…

That would slow them down as it would reduce the power of the floor & compromise the side-pod packaging and general airflow around the car.
I still think that the tyres are way too tall, still plenty of poorly damped air-suspension available.

Agree. 4.5m I think is too short 4.85-5m is more reasonable. Depending on the engine.

Well, slowing would be one of the points. As well ending the cars behaving like buses, and cutting down on stupid collisions.

[mzso]

Agreed.

Just thinking about WEC where there are length restrictions, that's gone up from 4.65m to 5m in the "hypercar" rulebook, both with a max wheelbase of 3.15m. Even F4 cars have to have a wheelbase between 2.75--2.95m and F3 cars 2.8--3.0m. The Formula E car is 5.2m long.

Maybe we oldies just have to accept race cars are long these days...

It's no different to the growth of road cars, it seems to me. Look at a current issue saloon car or hatchback and compare it with the same type of car from 20 or 30 years ago. They're just massive, and often with packaging that doesn't give that much more room to the occupants. Much of it, as with racing cars, is safety related with additional structures and space being provided between the occupants and any impact point.

Look at a current F1 tub and compare with that of the MP4/1 and the old original is just tiny in comparison.

MP4/1:
https://www.nobraking.com/wp-content/up ... K-edit.jpg

The only safety thing particularly affecting length is the need to be behind the front suspension IMO. But cars were still short after that rule. Crash structures and such can always be thicker.

[Blackout]

I really don't get it. Their argument for going to 18" wheels was to look more modern. And then they ruin the look by using covers.

The 18" is coming for a multitude of reasons. Lower profile = less aerodynamic movement = easier to simulate. Tyre suppliers want it to look more like their road product (I can only imagine for very stupid people, the sort who took up smoking because F1 cars were sponsored by tobacco companies).

The covers are to block the brake cooling flow - keeping the wake narrow. I imagine they might look better painted... but still.

I wonder how the hot air will be directed and vented after exiting the brake discs, knowing that it must exit from the inside face of the drum in 2022...
Well, today some cars seem to vent some of the rear brake air from the inside, but those drums are also quite obscure to me : P

After having looked at a number of pics, especially rear drums, I think I basically understand how the ducting will basically be in 2022.
A very basic drawing

[jjn9128]

The 18" is coming for a multitude of reasons. Lower profile = less aerodynamic movement = easier to simulate. Tyre suppliers want it to look more like their road product (I can only imagine for very stupid people, the sort who took up smoking because F1 cars were sponsored by tobacco companies).

The covers are to block the brake cooling flow - keeping the wake narrow. I imagine they might look better painted... but still.

I wonder how the hot air will be directed and vented after exiting the brake discs, knowing that it must exit from the inside face of the drum in 2022...
Well, today some cars seem to vent some of the rear brake air from the inside, but those drums are also quite obscure to me : P

After having looked at a number of pics, especially rear drums, I think I basically understand how the ducting will basically be in 2022.
A very basic drawing
https://i.imgur.com/rsGX06M.jpg

Yes and no. With 2021 there’s a lot of extraneous ducting to blow the axle as much as legally possible. So it’s not just about brake cooling. In 2022 the “air scoop” volume on the brake drum has to have an inlet - entirely visible from the front. And an outlet - entirely visible from the rear.